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How do Chazal know that the descendants of a Mamzer may never marry into the general populace?



Parashat Vayakhel + Shekalim
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5















The passuk says (Devarim 23:3-4):




לֹא־יָבֹ֥א מַמְזֵ֖ר בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָ֥בֹא ל֖וֹ בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָֽה׃



A Mamzer may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation shall not come for him into the congregation of Hashem.




The Mishnah (Yevamos 78b) takes for granted that a Mamzer’s descendants may never enter into the Congregation:




מתני׳ ממזרין ונתינין אסורין ואיסורן איסור עולם אחד זכרים ואחד נקבות:



Mamzeirim and Nesinim are forbidden, and their prohibition is a prohibition for eternity, whether males or females.




The Gemara, as far as I can tell, does not justify this assertion.



What is the source for this? Perhaps the passuk means that even the tenth generation may not enter, but beyond the tenth generation is permitted? This might be justified by contrasting it to v. 4 regarding Moavites and Amonites:




לֹֽא־יָבֹ֧א עַמּוֹנִ֛י וּמוֹאָבִ֖י בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָבֹ֥א לָהֶ֛ם בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָ֖ה עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃



An Amonite and Moavite may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation may not come for them into the congregation of Hashem forever.




Unlike the passuk by Mamzeirim, the passuk by Moav and Amon clarifies that it’s forever. Perhaps this indicates by Mamzeirim that it’s only until the tenth generation, but beyond that would be permissible?



What is the Mishnah’s source for asserting that a Mamzer is forbidden even beyond the tenth generation?










share|improve this question





























    5















    The passuk says (Devarim 23:3-4):




    לֹא־יָבֹ֥א מַמְזֵ֖ר בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָ֥בֹא ל֖וֹ בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָֽה׃



    A Mamzer may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation shall not come for him into the congregation of Hashem.




    The Mishnah (Yevamos 78b) takes for granted that a Mamzer’s descendants may never enter into the Congregation:




    מתני׳ ממזרין ונתינין אסורין ואיסורן איסור עולם אחד זכרים ואחד נקבות:



    Mamzeirim and Nesinim are forbidden, and their prohibition is a prohibition for eternity, whether males or females.




    The Gemara, as far as I can tell, does not justify this assertion.



    What is the source for this? Perhaps the passuk means that even the tenth generation may not enter, but beyond the tenth generation is permitted? This might be justified by contrasting it to v. 4 regarding Moavites and Amonites:




    לֹֽא־יָבֹ֧א עַמּוֹנִ֛י וּמוֹאָבִ֖י בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָבֹ֥א לָהֶ֛ם בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָ֖ה עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃



    An Amonite and Moavite may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation may not come for them into the congregation of Hashem forever.




    Unlike the passuk by Mamzeirim, the passuk by Moav and Amon clarifies that it’s forever. Perhaps this indicates by Mamzeirim that it’s only until the tenth generation, but beyond that would be permissible?



    What is the Mishnah’s source for asserting that a Mamzer is forbidden even beyond the tenth generation?










    share|improve this question



























      5












      5








      5








      The passuk says (Devarim 23:3-4):




      לֹא־יָבֹ֥א מַמְזֵ֖ר בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָ֥בֹא ל֖וֹ בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָֽה׃



      A Mamzer may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation shall not come for him into the congregation of Hashem.




      The Mishnah (Yevamos 78b) takes for granted that a Mamzer’s descendants may never enter into the Congregation:




      מתני׳ ממזרין ונתינין אסורין ואיסורן איסור עולם אחד זכרים ואחד נקבות:



      Mamzeirim and Nesinim are forbidden, and their prohibition is a prohibition for eternity, whether males or females.




      The Gemara, as far as I can tell, does not justify this assertion.



      What is the source for this? Perhaps the passuk means that even the tenth generation may not enter, but beyond the tenth generation is permitted? This might be justified by contrasting it to v. 4 regarding Moavites and Amonites:




      לֹֽא־יָבֹ֧א עַמּוֹנִ֛י וּמוֹאָבִ֖י בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָבֹ֥א לָהֶ֛ם בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָ֖ה עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃



      An Amonite and Moavite may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation may not come for them into the congregation of Hashem forever.




      Unlike the passuk by Mamzeirim, the passuk by Moav and Amon clarifies that it’s forever. Perhaps this indicates by Mamzeirim that it’s only until the tenth generation, but beyond that would be permissible?



      What is the Mishnah’s source for asserting that a Mamzer is forbidden even beyond the tenth generation?










      share|improve this question
















      The passuk says (Devarim 23:3-4):




      לֹא־יָבֹ֥א מַמְזֵ֖ר בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָ֥בֹא ל֖וֹ בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָֽה׃



      A Mamzer may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation shall not come for him into the congregation of Hashem.




      The Mishnah (Yevamos 78b) takes for granted that a Mamzer’s descendants may never enter into the Congregation:




      מתני׳ ממזרין ונתינין אסורין ואיסורן איסור עולם אחד זכרים ואחד נקבות:



      Mamzeirim and Nesinim are forbidden, and their prohibition is a prohibition for eternity, whether males or females.




      The Gemara, as far as I can tell, does not justify this assertion.



      What is the source for this? Perhaps the passuk means that even the tenth generation may not enter, but beyond the tenth generation is permitted? This might be justified by contrasting it to v. 4 regarding Moavites and Amonites:




      לֹֽא־יָבֹ֧א עַמּוֹנִ֛י וּמוֹאָבִ֖י בִּקְהַ֣ל יְהוָ֑ה גַּ֚ם דּ֣וֹר עֲשִׂירִ֔י לֹא־יָבֹ֥א לָהֶ֛ם בִּקְהַ֥ל יְהוָ֖ה עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃



      An Amonite and Moavite may not come into the congregation of Hashem; even the tenth generation may not come for them into the congregation of Hashem forever.




      Unlike the passuk by Mamzeirim, the passuk by Moav and Amon clarifies that it’s forever. Perhaps this indicates by Mamzeirim that it’s only until the tenth generation, but beyond that would be permissible?



      What is the Mishnah’s source for asserting that a Mamzer is forbidden even beyond the tenth generation?







      sources-mekorot marriage ki-teitzei masechet-yevamot mamzer






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      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 3 hours ago







      DonielF

















      asked 3 hours ago









      DonielFDonielF

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      14.1k12379






















          1 Answer
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          5














          Torah Temimah (text here) cites the Sifri here (my loose translation):




          גם דור עשירי – נאמר כאן דור עשירי ונאמר להלן בעמוני ומואבי דור עשירי (פ׳ ד׳) מה דור עשירי דלהלן עד עולם אף דור עשירי שבכאן עד עולם




          It says here "the tenth generation" and it says later "the tenth generation" (verse 4), just as "the tenth generation" later [may not marry in] forever, so too "the tenth generation" here [may not marry in] forever.



          (Note that the following passage in Sifri understands this to be through the mechanism of Gezeirah Shavah.)



          If so, asks the Torah Temimah, why doesn't it simply say "Ad Olam", "forever", here as well?





          1. He answers that this is to hint that there will be a time when Mamzerim will be "purified", as per Kiddushin 72b (Davidson Edition translation):




            ת"ר ממזירי ונתיני טהורים לעתיד לבא דברי ר' יוסי ר' מאיר אומר אין טהורים אמר לו ר' יוסי והלא כבר נאמר (יחזקאל לו, כה) וזרקתי עליכם מים טהורים וטהרתם אמר לו ר' מאיר כשהוא אומר מכל טומאותיכם ומכל גלוליכם ולא מן הממזרות אמר לו ר' יוסי כשהוא אומר אטהר אתכם הוי אומר אף מן הממזרות



            The Sages taught (Tosefta 5:5): Mamzerim and Gibeonites will be pure in the future; this is the statement of Rabbi Yosei. Rabbi Meir says: They will not be pure. Rabbi Yosei said to him: But hasn’t it already been stated: “And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you” (Ezekiel 36:25)? Rabbi Meir said to him: When it says: “From all your uncleanness, and from all your idols,” this emphasizes that God will purify people from these types of impurity, but not from mamzer status. Rabbi Yosei said to him: When it says: “Will I cleanse you,” at the end of the verse, you must say this means even from mamzer status.





          Edit:




          1. I later saw that Hakesav Vehakabbalah here answers similarly, but also notes that according to some, Mamzerim can become "purified in other ways", see Kiddushin 69a.


          2. I saw that Rav Dovid Zvi Hoffman answers that it is harder for a mamzer to reproduce for 10 generations, since few people want to marry him. Therefore, since it is a less common case, the Torah doesn't mention it.





          Also, note that Ralbag makes the comment here that from the fact that the Torah uses "Ad Olam" in the same context later, it is obvious that it applies here as well - we can learn one case from the other on logical grounds:




          כבר נתבאר אחר זה שאין הרצון בזה הלשון שמהדור העשירי ואילך יהיה מותר לבא בקהל שהרי אמר כן בעמוני ומואבי וזכר שם שהוא אסור לבא בקהל עד עולם ולזה תהיה הכונה בזה המקום שעד עולם לא יבא ממזר בקהל י״י ואם אמר אומר כי מזה המקום יתבאר שאינו אסור מעשירי ואילך כיון שלא אמר עד עולם אמרנו כי התורה לא תאמר דברים סותרים זה את זה כל שכן שתאמר אותם עם זה ללא ענין ולזה הוא מבואר שאם היתה הכונה באמרה גם דור העשירי שמדור עשירי ואילך יבא בקהל הנה זה יהיה סותר מה שאמר אחריו עד עולם ועוד שלא היה צריך לזכור זה הסותר אבל יספיק כשיאמר לא יבוא עמוני ומואבי בקהל השם עד עולם.







          share|improve this answer


























          • So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?

            – DonielF
            2 hours ago











          • He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF

            – רבות מחשבות
            1 hour ago













          • There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?

            – DonielF
            1 hour ago











          • see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF

            – רבות מחשבות
            1 hour ago













          • Interesting. In line with R' Hoffman's approach, the Gemara does mention a tradition that Mamzeirim die out within a couple of generations. "Bring me even a third-generation Mamzer and I will purify him."

            – DonielF
            1 hour ago



















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes








          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          5














          Torah Temimah (text here) cites the Sifri here (my loose translation):




          גם דור עשירי – נאמר כאן דור עשירי ונאמר להלן בעמוני ומואבי דור עשירי (פ׳ ד׳) מה דור עשירי דלהלן עד עולם אף דור עשירי שבכאן עד עולם




          It says here "the tenth generation" and it says later "the tenth generation" (verse 4), just as "the tenth generation" later [may not marry in] forever, so too "the tenth generation" here [may not marry in] forever.



          (Note that the following passage in Sifri understands this to be through the mechanism of Gezeirah Shavah.)



          If so, asks the Torah Temimah, why doesn't it simply say "Ad Olam", "forever", here as well?





          1. He answers that this is to hint that there will be a time when Mamzerim will be "purified", as per Kiddushin 72b (Davidson Edition translation):




            ת"ר ממזירי ונתיני טהורים לעתיד לבא דברי ר' יוסי ר' מאיר אומר אין טהורים אמר לו ר' יוסי והלא כבר נאמר (יחזקאל לו, כה) וזרקתי עליכם מים טהורים וטהרתם אמר לו ר' מאיר כשהוא אומר מכל טומאותיכם ומכל גלוליכם ולא מן הממזרות אמר לו ר' יוסי כשהוא אומר אטהר אתכם הוי אומר אף מן הממזרות



            The Sages taught (Tosefta 5:5): Mamzerim and Gibeonites will be pure in the future; this is the statement of Rabbi Yosei. Rabbi Meir says: They will not be pure. Rabbi Yosei said to him: But hasn’t it already been stated: “And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you” (Ezekiel 36:25)? Rabbi Meir said to him: When it says: “From all your uncleanness, and from all your idols,” this emphasizes that God will purify people from these types of impurity, but not from mamzer status. Rabbi Yosei said to him: When it says: “Will I cleanse you,” at the end of the verse, you must say this means even from mamzer status.





          Edit:




          1. I later saw that Hakesav Vehakabbalah here answers similarly, but also notes that according to some, Mamzerim can become "purified in other ways", see Kiddushin 69a.


          2. I saw that Rav Dovid Zvi Hoffman answers that it is harder for a mamzer to reproduce for 10 generations, since few people want to marry him. Therefore, since it is a less common case, the Torah doesn't mention it.





          Also, note that Ralbag makes the comment here that from the fact that the Torah uses "Ad Olam" in the same context later, it is obvious that it applies here as well - we can learn one case from the other on logical grounds:




          כבר נתבאר אחר זה שאין הרצון בזה הלשון שמהדור העשירי ואילך יהיה מותר לבא בקהל שהרי אמר כן בעמוני ומואבי וזכר שם שהוא אסור לבא בקהל עד עולם ולזה תהיה הכונה בזה המקום שעד עולם לא יבא ממזר בקהל י״י ואם אמר אומר כי מזה המקום יתבאר שאינו אסור מעשירי ואילך כיון שלא אמר עד עולם אמרנו כי התורה לא תאמר דברים סותרים זה את זה כל שכן שתאמר אותם עם זה ללא ענין ולזה הוא מבואר שאם היתה הכונה באמרה גם דור העשירי שמדור עשירי ואילך יבא בקהל הנה זה יהיה סותר מה שאמר אחריו עד עולם ועוד שלא היה צריך לזכור זה הסותר אבל יספיק כשיאמר לא יבוא עמוני ומואבי בקהל השם עד עולם.







          share|improve this answer


























          • So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?

            – DonielF
            2 hours ago











          • He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF

            – רבות מחשבות
            1 hour ago













          • There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?

            – DonielF
            1 hour ago











          • see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF

            – רבות מחשבות
            1 hour ago













          • Interesting. In line with R' Hoffman's approach, the Gemara does mention a tradition that Mamzeirim die out within a couple of generations. "Bring me even a third-generation Mamzer and I will purify him."

            – DonielF
            1 hour ago
















          5














          Torah Temimah (text here) cites the Sifri here (my loose translation):




          גם דור עשירי – נאמר כאן דור עשירי ונאמר להלן בעמוני ומואבי דור עשירי (פ׳ ד׳) מה דור עשירי דלהלן עד עולם אף דור עשירי שבכאן עד עולם




          It says here "the tenth generation" and it says later "the tenth generation" (verse 4), just as "the tenth generation" later [may not marry in] forever, so too "the tenth generation" here [may not marry in] forever.



          (Note that the following passage in Sifri understands this to be through the mechanism of Gezeirah Shavah.)



          If so, asks the Torah Temimah, why doesn't it simply say "Ad Olam", "forever", here as well?





          1. He answers that this is to hint that there will be a time when Mamzerim will be "purified", as per Kiddushin 72b (Davidson Edition translation):




            ת"ר ממזירי ונתיני טהורים לעתיד לבא דברי ר' יוסי ר' מאיר אומר אין טהורים אמר לו ר' יוסי והלא כבר נאמר (יחזקאל לו, כה) וזרקתי עליכם מים טהורים וטהרתם אמר לו ר' מאיר כשהוא אומר מכל טומאותיכם ומכל גלוליכם ולא מן הממזרות אמר לו ר' יוסי כשהוא אומר אטהר אתכם הוי אומר אף מן הממזרות



            The Sages taught (Tosefta 5:5): Mamzerim and Gibeonites will be pure in the future; this is the statement of Rabbi Yosei. Rabbi Meir says: They will not be pure. Rabbi Yosei said to him: But hasn’t it already been stated: “And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you” (Ezekiel 36:25)? Rabbi Meir said to him: When it says: “From all your uncleanness, and from all your idols,” this emphasizes that God will purify people from these types of impurity, but not from mamzer status. Rabbi Yosei said to him: When it says: “Will I cleanse you,” at the end of the verse, you must say this means even from mamzer status.





          Edit:




          1. I later saw that Hakesav Vehakabbalah here answers similarly, but also notes that according to some, Mamzerim can become "purified in other ways", see Kiddushin 69a.


          2. I saw that Rav Dovid Zvi Hoffman answers that it is harder for a mamzer to reproduce for 10 generations, since few people want to marry him. Therefore, since it is a less common case, the Torah doesn't mention it.





          Also, note that Ralbag makes the comment here that from the fact that the Torah uses "Ad Olam" in the same context later, it is obvious that it applies here as well - we can learn one case from the other on logical grounds:




          כבר נתבאר אחר זה שאין הרצון בזה הלשון שמהדור העשירי ואילך יהיה מותר לבא בקהל שהרי אמר כן בעמוני ומואבי וזכר שם שהוא אסור לבא בקהל עד עולם ולזה תהיה הכונה בזה המקום שעד עולם לא יבא ממזר בקהל י״י ואם אמר אומר כי מזה המקום יתבאר שאינו אסור מעשירי ואילך כיון שלא אמר עד עולם אמרנו כי התורה לא תאמר דברים סותרים זה את זה כל שכן שתאמר אותם עם זה ללא ענין ולזה הוא מבואר שאם היתה הכונה באמרה גם דור העשירי שמדור עשירי ואילך יבא בקהל הנה זה יהיה סותר מה שאמר אחריו עד עולם ועוד שלא היה צריך לזכור זה הסותר אבל יספיק כשיאמר לא יבוא עמוני ומואבי בקהל השם עד עולם.







          share|improve this answer


























          • So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?

            – DonielF
            2 hours ago











          • He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF

            – רבות מחשבות
            1 hour ago













          • There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?

            – DonielF
            1 hour ago











          • see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF

            – רבות מחשבות
            1 hour ago













          • Interesting. In line with R' Hoffman's approach, the Gemara does mention a tradition that Mamzeirim die out within a couple of generations. "Bring me even a third-generation Mamzer and I will purify him."

            – DonielF
            1 hour ago














          5












          5








          5







          Torah Temimah (text here) cites the Sifri here (my loose translation):




          גם דור עשירי – נאמר כאן דור עשירי ונאמר להלן בעמוני ומואבי דור עשירי (פ׳ ד׳) מה דור עשירי דלהלן עד עולם אף דור עשירי שבכאן עד עולם




          It says here "the tenth generation" and it says later "the tenth generation" (verse 4), just as "the tenth generation" later [may not marry in] forever, so too "the tenth generation" here [may not marry in] forever.



          (Note that the following passage in Sifri understands this to be through the mechanism of Gezeirah Shavah.)



          If so, asks the Torah Temimah, why doesn't it simply say "Ad Olam", "forever", here as well?





          1. He answers that this is to hint that there will be a time when Mamzerim will be "purified", as per Kiddushin 72b (Davidson Edition translation):




            ת"ר ממזירי ונתיני טהורים לעתיד לבא דברי ר' יוסי ר' מאיר אומר אין טהורים אמר לו ר' יוסי והלא כבר נאמר (יחזקאל לו, כה) וזרקתי עליכם מים טהורים וטהרתם אמר לו ר' מאיר כשהוא אומר מכל טומאותיכם ומכל גלוליכם ולא מן הממזרות אמר לו ר' יוסי כשהוא אומר אטהר אתכם הוי אומר אף מן הממזרות



            The Sages taught (Tosefta 5:5): Mamzerim and Gibeonites will be pure in the future; this is the statement of Rabbi Yosei. Rabbi Meir says: They will not be pure. Rabbi Yosei said to him: But hasn’t it already been stated: “And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you” (Ezekiel 36:25)? Rabbi Meir said to him: When it says: “From all your uncleanness, and from all your idols,” this emphasizes that God will purify people from these types of impurity, but not from mamzer status. Rabbi Yosei said to him: When it says: “Will I cleanse you,” at the end of the verse, you must say this means even from mamzer status.





          Edit:




          1. I later saw that Hakesav Vehakabbalah here answers similarly, but also notes that according to some, Mamzerim can become "purified in other ways", see Kiddushin 69a.


          2. I saw that Rav Dovid Zvi Hoffman answers that it is harder for a mamzer to reproduce for 10 generations, since few people want to marry him. Therefore, since it is a less common case, the Torah doesn't mention it.





          Also, note that Ralbag makes the comment here that from the fact that the Torah uses "Ad Olam" in the same context later, it is obvious that it applies here as well - we can learn one case from the other on logical grounds:




          כבר נתבאר אחר זה שאין הרצון בזה הלשון שמהדור העשירי ואילך יהיה מותר לבא בקהל שהרי אמר כן בעמוני ומואבי וזכר שם שהוא אסור לבא בקהל עד עולם ולזה תהיה הכונה בזה המקום שעד עולם לא יבא ממזר בקהל י״י ואם אמר אומר כי מזה המקום יתבאר שאינו אסור מעשירי ואילך כיון שלא אמר עד עולם אמרנו כי התורה לא תאמר דברים סותרים זה את זה כל שכן שתאמר אותם עם זה ללא ענין ולזה הוא מבואר שאם היתה הכונה באמרה גם דור העשירי שמדור עשירי ואילך יבא בקהל הנה זה יהיה סותר מה שאמר אחריו עד עולם ועוד שלא היה צריך לזכור זה הסותר אבל יספיק כשיאמר לא יבוא עמוני ומואבי בקהל השם עד עולם.







          share|improve this answer















          Torah Temimah (text here) cites the Sifri here (my loose translation):




          גם דור עשירי – נאמר כאן דור עשירי ונאמר להלן בעמוני ומואבי דור עשירי (פ׳ ד׳) מה דור עשירי דלהלן עד עולם אף דור עשירי שבכאן עד עולם




          It says here "the tenth generation" and it says later "the tenth generation" (verse 4), just as "the tenth generation" later [may not marry in] forever, so too "the tenth generation" here [may not marry in] forever.



          (Note that the following passage in Sifri understands this to be through the mechanism of Gezeirah Shavah.)



          If so, asks the Torah Temimah, why doesn't it simply say "Ad Olam", "forever", here as well?





          1. He answers that this is to hint that there will be a time when Mamzerim will be "purified", as per Kiddushin 72b (Davidson Edition translation):




            ת"ר ממזירי ונתיני טהורים לעתיד לבא דברי ר' יוסי ר' מאיר אומר אין טהורים אמר לו ר' יוסי והלא כבר נאמר (יחזקאל לו, כה) וזרקתי עליכם מים טהורים וטהרתם אמר לו ר' מאיר כשהוא אומר מכל טומאותיכם ומכל גלוליכם ולא מן הממזרות אמר לו ר' יוסי כשהוא אומר אטהר אתכם הוי אומר אף מן הממזרות



            The Sages taught (Tosefta 5:5): Mamzerim and Gibeonites will be pure in the future; this is the statement of Rabbi Yosei. Rabbi Meir says: They will not be pure. Rabbi Yosei said to him: But hasn’t it already been stated: “And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you” (Ezekiel 36:25)? Rabbi Meir said to him: When it says: “From all your uncleanness, and from all your idols,” this emphasizes that God will purify people from these types of impurity, but not from mamzer status. Rabbi Yosei said to him: When it says: “Will I cleanse you,” at the end of the verse, you must say this means even from mamzer status.





          Edit:




          1. I later saw that Hakesav Vehakabbalah here answers similarly, but also notes that according to some, Mamzerim can become "purified in other ways", see Kiddushin 69a.


          2. I saw that Rav Dovid Zvi Hoffman answers that it is harder for a mamzer to reproduce for 10 generations, since few people want to marry him. Therefore, since it is a less common case, the Torah doesn't mention it.





          Also, note that Ralbag makes the comment here that from the fact that the Torah uses "Ad Olam" in the same context later, it is obvious that it applies here as well - we can learn one case from the other on logical grounds:




          כבר נתבאר אחר זה שאין הרצון בזה הלשון שמהדור העשירי ואילך יהיה מותר לבא בקהל שהרי אמר כן בעמוני ומואבי וזכר שם שהוא אסור לבא בקהל עד עולם ולזה תהיה הכונה בזה המקום שעד עולם לא יבא ממזר בקהל י״י ואם אמר אומר כי מזה המקום יתבאר שאינו אסור מעשירי ואילך כיון שלא אמר עד עולם אמרנו כי התורה לא תאמר דברים סותרים זה את זה כל שכן שתאמר אותם עם זה ללא ענין ולזה הוא מבואר שאם היתה הכונה באמרה גם דור העשירי שמדור עשירי ואילך יבא בקהל הנה זה יהיה סותר מה שאמר אחריו עד עולם ועוד שלא היה צריך לזכור זה הסותר אבל יספיק כשיאמר לא יבוא עמוני ומואבי בקהל השם עד עולם.








          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 1 hour ago

























          answered 2 hours ago









          רבות מחשבותרבות מחשבות

          13.8k125120




          13.8k125120













          • So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?

            – DonielF
            2 hours ago











          • He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF

            – רבות מחשבות
            1 hour ago













          • There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?

            – DonielF
            1 hour ago











          • see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF

            – רבות מחשבות
            1 hour ago













          • Interesting. In line with R' Hoffman's approach, the Gemara does mention a tradition that Mamzeirim die out within a couple of generations. "Bring me even a third-generation Mamzer and I will purify him."

            – DonielF
            1 hour ago



















          • So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?

            – DonielF
            2 hours ago











          • He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF

            – רבות מחשבות
            1 hour ago













          • There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?

            – DonielF
            1 hour ago











          • see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF

            – רבות מחשבות
            1 hour ago













          • Interesting. In line with R' Hoffman's approach, the Gemara does mention a tradition that Mamzeirim die out within a couple of generations. "Bring me even a third-generation Mamzer and I will purify him."

            – DonielF
            1 hour ago

















          So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?

          – DonielF
          2 hours ago





          So, according to the Torah Temimah, the passuk is paskening according to the Tanna Kamma/R' Yosi? How does R' Meir read the passuk?

          – DonielF
          2 hours ago













          He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF

          – רבות מחשבות
          1 hour ago







          He'll have to follow one of the other alternatives... @DonielF

          – רבות מחשבות
          1 hour ago















          There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?

          – DonielF
          1 hour ago





          There's an alternative? According to him, why doesn't it say עד עולם?

          – DonielF
          1 hour ago













          see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF

          – רבות מחשבות
          1 hour ago







          see the two other answers I edited in @DonielF

          – רבות מחשבות
          1 hour ago















          Interesting. In line with R' Hoffman's approach, the Gemara does mention a tradition that Mamzeirim die out within a couple of generations. "Bring me even a third-generation Mamzer and I will purify him."

          – DonielF
          1 hour ago





          Interesting. In line with R' Hoffman's approach, the Gemara does mention a tradition that Mamzeirim die out within a couple of generations. "Bring me even a third-generation Mamzer and I will purify him."

          – DonielF
          1 hour ago



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