Why does this relation fail symmetry and transitivity properties?Properties of Relations. Reflexive,...
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Why does this relation fail symmetry and transitivity properties?
Properties of Relations. Reflexive, Symmetric, and Transitive.$beta$ as the relation “is a brother of”Smallest relation for reflexive, symmetry and transitivityProving Reflexivity, Symmetry and Transitivity of a RelationProving symmetry and transitivityWhy $yC_1x iff yC_2x$ implies $C_1 = C_2$? $C_i$ is a relation.Equivalence relation and partitions.Commutative pairs of relations do not define an equivalence relationProof of transitivity for equivalence relationDoes symmetry and transitivity imply reflexivity for nonempty binary relation?
$begingroup$
The question states, let $S$ be the set of all humans.
Define $a ∼ b$ iff $a$ is a full-brother
of $b$.
Symmetry: Since $a$ shares both parents with $b$, then $b$ shares both parents with $a$. Would this be false because $b$ is not defined as a male, so $b$ is instead the full sister of $a$?
Transitivity: Since $a$ shares both parents with $b$, and $b$ shares both parents with $c$, then a shares both parents with $c$. What does the $c$ mean in this context? Is it simply another person introduced?
discrete-mathematics relations equivalence-relations
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The question states, let $S$ be the set of all humans.
Define $a ∼ b$ iff $a$ is a full-brother
of $b$.
Symmetry: Since $a$ shares both parents with $b$, then $b$ shares both parents with $a$. Would this be false because $b$ is not defined as a male, so $b$ is instead the full sister of $a$?
Transitivity: Since $a$ shares both parents with $b$, and $b$ shares both parents with $c$, then a shares both parents with $c$. What does the $c$ mean in this context? Is it simply another person introduced?
discrete-mathematics relations equivalence-relations
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The question states, let $S$ be the set of all humans.
Define $a ∼ b$ iff $a$ is a full-brother
of $b$.
Symmetry: Since $a$ shares both parents with $b$, then $b$ shares both parents with $a$. Would this be false because $b$ is not defined as a male, so $b$ is instead the full sister of $a$?
Transitivity: Since $a$ shares both parents with $b$, and $b$ shares both parents with $c$, then a shares both parents with $c$. What does the $c$ mean in this context? Is it simply another person introduced?
discrete-mathematics relations equivalence-relations
$endgroup$
The question states, let $S$ be the set of all humans.
Define $a ∼ b$ iff $a$ is a full-brother
of $b$.
Symmetry: Since $a$ shares both parents with $b$, then $b$ shares both parents with $a$. Would this be false because $b$ is not defined as a male, so $b$ is instead the full sister of $a$?
Transitivity: Since $a$ shares both parents with $b$, and $b$ shares both parents with $c$, then a shares both parents with $c$. What does the $c$ mean in this context? Is it simply another person introduced?
discrete-mathematics relations equivalence-relations
discrete-mathematics relations equivalence-relations
edited 18 mins ago
Michael Ramage
asked 40 mins ago
Michael RamageMichael Ramage
234
234
add a comment |
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
For a relation to be equvalence relation you also need reflexivity that is
$$
asim a, qquad forall a in S.
$$
which would mean that $a$ is a full brother of himself which is absurd.
Reflecting on your other questions if you define $sim$ to be brothership then you definitely run into trouble with different sexes. So in case of $a$ and $b$ has different sex it is not holding up.
For the question about transitivity you would read, "a is a full brother of b" and "b is a full brother of c". I would say that this holds up.
I hope I could help
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This helps. Thank you! I am trying to figure out why the back of the book states that all properties fail for this relation. Perhaps it is a type. I have seen a few along my journey through it.
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
26 mins ago
$begingroup$
" For the question about transitivity you would read, "a is a full brother of b" and "b is a full brother of c". I would say that this holds up" it fails if a and c are the same person.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
47 secs ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am a full brother of my sister, but my sister is not a full brother of me. So this relation is not symmetric.
Transitivity is true though. If $a$ is a full brother of $b$ and $b$ is a full brother of $c$, then $a$ is a full brother of $c$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
... and yes, in this case $c$ is just a third person introduced.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
Since a is a full brother of b and b is a full brother of c means that both a and b are males, so c can be a sister to a and b. Even in that case, a is the brother of c. However, the back of my book says that all properties fail. I do not know if this is a type or not. Thank you both!
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
28 mins ago
$begingroup$
" Transitivity is true though. If a is a full brother of b and b is a full brother of c , then is a full brother of a". Not if a and c are the same person! Transitivity fails.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your title is inaccurate. An equivalence relationship can't fail symmetric and transitive properties, by definition, and this is not an equivalence relation because it does fail.
It fails reflexive because $a $~$a $ never happens. No-one is their own brother.
It fails symmetry for exactly the reason you state. If Allen, a boy, and Betty, girl, have the same parents than Allen is a full brother to Betty, but Betty is not a full brother to Allen.
Update!
Transitivity fails. If Allen is a full brother to Bob. And Bob is a full brother to Allen then Allen is not a full brother to Allen.
Transitivity fails.
===
I suppose we can define $a $~$b $ as 1) $a $ and be have the same parents, 2) $a $ is male, 3) $a $ and $b $ are different people.
Since no-one can 3) be a different person than oneself reflexivity can never happen. 2)Also being male may or may not occur. But 1) have same parents as self must always occur.
If $a $~$b $ then 1) $b$ and $a $ have same parents and 3) $b $
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I have corrected it. Does it read correct now?
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
17 mins ago
$begingroup$
Yes. it's a relation. But it's not an equivalence relation. It's not an equivalence relation because it fails. BTW I don't know why your book says transitivity fails.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
15 mins ago
$begingroup$
I understand. It is a book by my professor Alex McCallister, "A Transition to Advanced Mathematics: A Survey Course." I have spent several hours attempting to understand why transitivity fails, when it does not, unfortunately.
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
12 mins ago
$begingroup$
Got it! If $a$ and $b $ are both boys then $a=b$ and $b=a$ but $ane a$.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
4 mins ago
add a comment |
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
For a relation to be equvalence relation you also need reflexivity that is
$$
asim a, qquad forall a in S.
$$
which would mean that $a$ is a full brother of himself which is absurd.
Reflecting on your other questions if you define $sim$ to be brothership then you definitely run into trouble with different sexes. So in case of $a$ and $b$ has different sex it is not holding up.
For the question about transitivity you would read, "a is a full brother of b" and "b is a full brother of c". I would say that this holds up.
I hope I could help
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This helps. Thank you! I am trying to figure out why the back of the book states that all properties fail for this relation. Perhaps it is a type. I have seen a few along my journey through it.
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
26 mins ago
$begingroup$
" For the question about transitivity you would read, "a is a full brother of b" and "b is a full brother of c". I would say that this holds up" it fails if a and c are the same person.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
47 secs ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
For a relation to be equvalence relation you also need reflexivity that is
$$
asim a, qquad forall a in S.
$$
which would mean that $a$ is a full brother of himself which is absurd.
Reflecting on your other questions if you define $sim$ to be brothership then you definitely run into trouble with different sexes. So in case of $a$ and $b$ has different sex it is not holding up.
For the question about transitivity you would read, "a is a full brother of b" and "b is a full brother of c". I would say that this holds up.
I hope I could help
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This helps. Thank you! I am trying to figure out why the back of the book states that all properties fail for this relation. Perhaps it is a type. I have seen a few along my journey through it.
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
26 mins ago
$begingroup$
" For the question about transitivity you would read, "a is a full brother of b" and "b is a full brother of c". I would say that this holds up" it fails if a and c are the same person.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
47 secs ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
For a relation to be equvalence relation you also need reflexivity that is
$$
asim a, qquad forall a in S.
$$
which would mean that $a$ is a full brother of himself which is absurd.
Reflecting on your other questions if you define $sim$ to be brothership then you definitely run into trouble with different sexes. So in case of $a$ and $b$ has different sex it is not holding up.
For the question about transitivity you would read, "a is a full brother of b" and "b is a full brother of c". I would say that this holds up.
I hope I could help
$endgroup$
For a relation to be equvalence relation you also need reflexivity that is
$$
asim a, qquad forall a in S.
$$
which would mean that $a$ is a full brother of himself which is absurd.
Reflecting on your other questions if you define $sim$ to be brothership then you definitely run into trouble with different sexes. So in case of $a$ and $b$ has different sex it is not holding up.
For the question about transitivity you would read, "a is a full brother of b" and "b is a full brother of c". I would say that this holds up.
I hope I could help
answered 29 mins ago
Vinyl_coat_jawaVinyl_coat_jawa
2,9651130
2,9651130
$begingroup$
This helps. Thank you! I am trying to figure out why the back of the book states that all properties fail for this relation. Perhaps it is a type. I have seen a few along my journey through it.
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
26 mins ago
$begingroup$
" For the question about transitivity you would read, "a is a full brother of b" and "b is a full brother of c". I would say that this holds up" it fails if a and c are the same person.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
47 secs ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This helps. Thank you! I am trying to figure out why the back of the book states that all properties fail for this relation. Perhaps it is a type. I have seen a few along my journey through it.
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
26 mins ago
$begingroup$
" For the question about transitivity you would read, "a is a full brother of b" and "b is a full brother of c". I would say that this holds up" it fails if a and c are the same person.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
47 secs ago
$begingroup$
This helps. Thank you! I am trying to figure out why the back of the book states that all properties fail for this relation. Perhaps it is a type. I have seen a few along my journey through it.
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
26 mins ago
$begingroup$
This helps. Thank you! I am trying to figure out why the back of the book states that all properties fail for this relation. Perhaps it is a type. I have seen a few along my journey through it.
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
26 mins ago
$begingroup$
" For the question about transitivity you would read, "a is a full brother of b" and "b is a full brother of c". I would say that this holds up" it fails if a and c are the same person.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
47 secs ago
$begingroup$
" For the question about transitivity you would read, "a is a full brother of b" and "b is a full brother of c". I would say that this holds up" it fails if a and c are the same person.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
47 secs ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am a full brother of my sister, but my sister is not a full brother of me. So this relation is not symmetric.
Transitivity is true though. If $a$ is a full brother of $b$ and $b$ is a full brother of $c$, then $a$ is a full brother of $c$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
... and yes, in this case $c$ is just a third person introduced.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
Since a is a full brother of b and b is a full brother of c means that both a and b are males, so c can be a sister to a and b. Even in that case, a is the brother of c. However, the back of my book says that all properties fail. I do not know if this is a type or not. Thank you both!
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
28 mins ago
$begingroup$
" Transitivity is true though. If a is a full brother of b and b is a full brother of c , then is a full brother of a". Not if a and c are the same person! Transitivity fails.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am a full brother of my sister, but my sister is not a full brother of me. So this relation is not symmetric.
Transitivity is true though. If $a$ is a full brother of $b$ and $b$ is a full brother of $c$, then $a$ is a full brother of $c$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
... and yes, in this case $c$ is just a third person introduced.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
Since a is a full brother of b and b is a full brother of c means that both a and b are males, so c can be a sister to a and b. Even in that case, a is the brother of c. However, the back of my book says that all properties fail. I do not know if this is a type or not. Thank you both!
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
28 mins ago
$begingroup$
" Transitivity is true though. If a is a full brother of b and b is a full brother of c , then is a full brother of a". Not if a and c are the same person! Transitivity fails.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am a full brother of my sister, but my sister is not a full brother of me. So this relation is not symmetric.
Transitivity is true though. If $a$ is a full brother of $b$ and $b$ is a full brother of $c$, then $a$ is a full brother of $c$.
$endgroup$
I am a full brother of my sister, but my sister is not a full brother of me. So this relation is not symmetric.
Transitivity is true though. If $a$ is a full brother of $b$ and $b$ is a full brother of $c$, then $a$ is a full brother of $c$.
answered 32 mins ago
Robert IsraelRobert Israel
325k23214468
325k23214468
$begingroup$
... and yes, in this case $c$ is just a third person introduced.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
Since a is a full brother of b and b is a full brother of c means that both a and b are males, so c can be a sister to a and b. Even in that case, a is the brother of c. However, the back of my book says that all properties fail. I do not know if this is a type or not. Thank you both!
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
28 mins ago
$begingroup$
" Transitivity is true though. If a is a full brother of b and b is a full brother of c , then is a full brother of a". Not if a and c are the same person! Transitivity fails.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
... and yes, in this case $c$ is just a third person introduced.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
Since a is a full brother of b and b is a full brother of c means that both a and b are males, so c can be a sister to a and b. Even in that case, a is the brother of c. However, the back of my book says that all properties fail. I do not know if this is a type or not. Thank you both!
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
28 mins ago
$begingroup$
" Transitivity is true though. If a is a full brother of b and b is a full brother of c , then is a full brother of a". Not if a and c are the same person! Transitivity fails.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 mins ago
$begingroup$
... and yes, in this case $c$ is just a third person introduced.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
... and yes, in this case $c$ is just a third person introduced.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
31 mins ago
$begingroup$
Since a is a full brother of b and b is a full brother of c means that both a and b are males, so c can be a sister to a and b. Even in that case, a is the brother of c. However, the back of my book says that all properties fail. I do not know if this is a type or not. Thank you both!
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
28 mins ago
$begingroup$
Since a is a full brother of b and b is a full brother of c means that both a and b are males, so c can be a sister to a and b. Even in that case, a is the brother of c. However, the back of my book says that all properties fail. I do not know if this is a type or not. Thank you both!
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
28 mins ago
$begingroup$
" Transitivity is true though. If a is a full brother of b and b is a full brother of c , then is a full brother of a". Not if a and c are the same person! Transitivity fails.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 mins ago
$begingroup$
" Transitivity is true though. If a is a full brother of b and b is a full brother of c , then is a full brother of a". Not if a and c are the same person! Transitivity fails.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
3 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your title is inaccurate. An equivalence relationship can't fail symmetric and transitive properties, by definition, and this is not an equivalence relation because it does fail.
It fails reflexive because $a $~$a $ never happens. No-one is their own brother.
It fails symmetry for exactly the reason you state. If Allen, a boy, and Betty, girl, have the same parents than Allen is a full brother to Betty, but Betty is not a full brother to Allen.
Update!
Transitivity fails. If Allen is a full brother to Bob. And Bob is a full brother to Allen then Allen is not a full brother to Allen.
Transitivity fails.
===
I suppose we can define $a $~$b $ as 1) $a $ and be have the same parents, 2) $a $ is male, 3) $a $ and $b $ are different people.
Since no-one can 3) be a different person than oneself reflexivity can never happen. 2)Also being male may or may not occur. But 1) have same parents as self must always occur.
If $a $~$b $ then 1) $b$ and $a $ have same parents and 3) $b $
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I have corrected it. Does it read correct now?
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
17 mins ago
$begingroup$
Yes. it's a relation. But it's not an equivalence relation. It's not an equivalence relation because it fails. BTW I don't know why your book says transitivity fails.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
15 mins ago
$begingroup$
I understand. It is a book by my professor Alex McCallister, "A Transition to Advanced Mathematics: A Survey Course." I have spent several hours attempting to understand why transitivity fails, when it does not, unfortunately.
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
12 mins ago
$begingroup$
Got it! If $a$ and $b $ are both boys then $a=b$ and $b=a$ but $ane a$.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
4 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your title is inaccurate. An equivalence relationship can't fail symmetric and transitive properties, by definition, and this is not an equivalence relation because it does fail.
It fails reflexive because $a $~$a $ never happens. No-one is their own brother.
It fails symmetry for exactly the reason you state. If Allen, a boy, and Betty, girl, have the same parents than Allen is a full brother to Betty, but Betty is not a full brother to Allen.
Update!
Transitivity fails. If Allen is a full brother to Bob. And Bob is a full brother to Allen then Allen is not a full brother to Allen.
Transitivity fails.
===
I suppose we can define $a $~$b $ as 1) $a $ and be have the same parents, 2) $a $ is male, 3) $a $ and $b $ are different people.
Since no-one can 3) be a different person than oneself reflexivity can never happen. 2)Also being male may or may not occur. But 1) have same parents as self must always occur.
If $a $~$b $ then 1) $b$ and $a $ have same parents and 3) $b $
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I have corrected it. Does it read correct now?
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
17 mins ago
$begingroup$
Yes. it's a relation. But it's not an equivalence relation. It's not an equivalence relation because it fails. BTW I don't know why your book says transitivity fails.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
15 mins ago
$begingroup$
I understand. It is a book by my professor Alex McCallister, "A Transition to Advanced Mathematics: A Survey Course." I have spent several hours attempting to understand why transitivity fails, when it does not, unfortunately.
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
12 mins ago
$begingroup$
Got it! If $a$ and $b $ are both boys then $a=b$ and $b=a$ but $ane a$.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
4 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your title is inaccurate. An equivalence relationship can't fail symmetric and transitive properties, by definition, and this is not an equivalence relation because it does fail.
It fails reflexive because $a $~$a $ never happens. No-one is their own brother.
It fails symmetry for exactly the reason you state. If Allen, a boy, and Betty, girl, have the same parents than Allen is a full brother to Betty, but Betty is not a full brother to Allen.
Update!
Transitivity fails. If Allen is a full brother to Bob. And Bob is a full brother to Allen then Allen is not a full brother to Allen.
Transitivity fails.
===
I suppose we can define $a $~$b $ as 1) $a $ and be have the same parents, 2) $a $ is male, 3) $a $ and $b $ are different people.
Since no-one can 3) be a different person than oneself reflexivity can never happen. 2)Also being male may or may not occur. But 1) have same parents as self must always occur.
If $a $~$b $ then 1) $b$ and $a $ have same parents and 3) $b $
$endgroup$
Your title is inaccurate. An equivalence relationship can't fail symmetric and transitive properties, by definition, and this is not an equivalence relation because it does fail.
It fails reflexive because $a $~$a $ never happens. No-one is their own brother.
It fails symmetry for exactly the reason you state. If Allen, a boy, and Betty, girl, have the same parents than Allen is a full brother to Betty, but Betty is not a full brother to Allen.
Update!
Transitivity fails. If Allen is a full brother to Bob. And Bob is a full brother to Allen then Allen is not a full brother to Allen.
Transitivity fails.
===
I suppose we can define $a $~$b $ as 1) $a $ and be have the same parents, 2) $a $ is male, 3) $a $ and $b $ are different people.
Since no-one can 3) be a different person than oneself reflexivity can never happen. 2)Also being male may or may not occur. But 1) have same parents as self must always occur.
If $a $~$b $ then 1) $b$ and $a $ have same parents and 3) $b $
edited 6 mins ago
answered 19 mins ago
fleabloodfleablood
71.4k22686
71.4k22686
$begingroup$
I have corrected it. Does it read correct now?
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
17 mins ago
$begingroup$
Yes. it's a relation. But it's not an equivalence relation. It's not an equivalence relation because it fails. BTW I don't know why your book says transitivity fails.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
15 mins ago
$begingroup$
I understand. It is a book by my professor Alex McCallister, "A Transition to Advanced Mathematics: A Survey Course." I have spent several hours attempting to understand why transitivity fails, when it does not, unfortunately.
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
12 mins ago
$begingroup$
Got it! If $a$ and $b $ are both boys then $a=b$ and $b=a$ but $ane a$.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
4 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I have corrected it. Does it read correct now?
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
17 mins ago
$begingroup$
Yes. it's a relation. But it's not an equivalence relation. It's not an equivalence relation because it fails. BTW I don't know why your book says transitivity fails.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
15 mins ago
$begingroup$
I understand. It is a book by my professor Alex McCallister, "A Transition to Advanced Mathematics: A Survey Course." I have spent several hours attempting to understand why transitivity fails, when it does not, unfortunately.
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
12 mins ago
$begingroup$
Got it! If $a$ and $b $ are both boys then $a=b$ and $b=a$ but $ane a$.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
4 mins ago
$begingroup$
I have corrected it. Does it read correct now?
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
17 mins ago
$begingroup$
I have corrected it. Does it read correct now?
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
17 mins ago
$begingroup$
Yes. it's a relation. But it's not an equivalence relation. It's not an equivalence relation because it fails. BTW I don't know why your book says transitivity fails.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
15 mins ago
$begingroup$
Yes. it's a relation. But it's not an equivalence relation. It's not an equivalence relation because it fails. BTW I don't know why your book says transitivity fails.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
15 mins ago
$begingroup$
I understand. It is a book by my professor Alex McCallister, "A Transition to Advanced Mathematics: A Survey Course." I have spent several hours attempting to understand why transitivity fails, when it does not, unfortunately.
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
12 mins ago
$begingroup$
I understand. It is a book by my professor Alex McCallister, "A Transition to Advanced Mathematics: A Survey Course." I have spent several hours attempting to understand why transitivity fails, when it does not, unfortunately.
$endgroup$
– Michael Ramage
12 mins ago
$begingroup$
Got it! If $a$ and $b $ are both boys then $a=b$ and $b=a$ but $ane a$.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
4 mins ago
$begingroup$
Got it! If $a$ and $b $ are both boys then $a=b$ and $b=a$ but $ane a$.
$endgroup$
– fleablood
4 mins ago
add a comment |
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