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When does a person lose diplomatic status?


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3















Ahmed Ali Muthana, father of Hoda Muthana, "claims" that he was no longer working as a diplomat at the time of his daughter's birth, thereby insisting that his daughter was born a US citizen under the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution.



His statement suggests that he was at one time employed in a diplomatic function (and that assumes that he had diplomatic "papers" because of his employ), how does one lose that status, and is there any action that he is required to take to relinquish that status? Further more, if he failed to take some action to relinquish that status, has he committed some crime?










share|improve this question





























    3















    Ahmed Ali Muthana, father of Hoda Muthana, "claims" that he was no longer working as a diplomat at the time of his daughter's birth, thereby insisting that his daughter was born a US citizen under the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution.



    His statement suggests that he was at one time employed in a diplomatic function (and that assumes that he had diplomatic "papers" because of his employ), how does one lose that status, and is there any action that he is required to take to relinquish that status? Further more, if he failed to take some action to relinquish that status, has he committed some crime?










    share|improve this question



























      3












      3








      3








      Ahmed Ali Muthana, father of Hoda Muthana, "claims" that he was no longer working as a diplomat at the time of his daughter's birth, thereby insisting that his daughter was born a US citizen under the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution.



      His statement suggests that he was at one time employed in a diplomatic function (and that assumes that he had diplomatic "papers" because of his employ), how does one lose that status, and is there any action that he is required to take to relinquish that status? Further more, if he failed to take some action to relinquish that status, has he committed some crime?










      share|improve this question
















      Ahmed Ali Muthana, father of Hoda Muthana, "claims" that he was no longer working as a diplomat at the time of his daughter's birth, thereby insisting that his daughter was born a US citizen under the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution.



      His statement suggests that he was at one time employed in a diplomatic function (and that assumes that he had diplomatic "papers" because of his employ), how does one lose that status, and is there any action that he is required to take to relinquish that status? Further more, if he failed to take some action to relinquish that status, has he committed some crime?







      united-states constitutional-law immigration citizenship foreign-relations






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 5 hours ago









      ohwilleke

      49.5k256127




      49.5k256127










      asked 6 hours ago









      BobEBobE

      29619




      29619






















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          3















          His statement suggests that he was at one time employed in a
          diplomatic function (and that assumes that he had diplomatic "papers"
          because of his employ), how does one lose that status, and is there
          any action that he is required to take to relinquish that status?




          Diplomatic personnel with official diplomatic status under the relevant treaties and for purposes of U.S. naturalization laws are credentialed by the U.S. Department of State. When an embassy and consulate wants to bring in a new diplomat, it provides their credentials to the State Department, which must approve the grant of diplomatic status to the person, although this decision is given very broad deference in practice.



          The State Department could decline to credential someone due to an individualized history of prior misconduct (e.g. a known serial killer or war criminal who escaped prosecution due to diplomatic immunity), because the regime seeking to have the diplomat credentialed is no longer recognized as legitimate by the United States (e.g. the Assad regime of Syria), or because the total number of diplomats is excessive (e.g. if Luxembourg wanted to credential 1000 diplomats in the U.S.).



          Mostly, however, the credentialing process is important because a diplomat's credentials can be revoked. This is usually done either in response to the individualized conduct of a particular person (for example, the person is discovered to be a spy with a diplomatic cover who is actively stealing key secrets from the United States), or as a symbolic form of sanctions for conduct of the diplomat's country of which the United States does not approve. For example, many countries revoked the credentials of many Russian diplomats after Russia assassinated a former Russian spy in Britain.



          When a diplomat ends a tour of service in the United States, that diplomat's credentials are supposed to be withdrawn, in part, to prevent the number of credentialed diplomats from their country in the U.S. from being excessive. A credentialed diplomat is not required to be in the U.S. 24/7 while the credentials are in place. But, the country has some mild incentives not to have too many absentee diplomats. (The U.S. State Department could also unilaterally revoke the credentials of a diplomat known to be a long time absentee.)



          It isn't clear to me in this case, if this individual's credentials had actually been formally withdrawn yet, or if he and his family were in the gap period between terminating his employment in the U.S. with the embassy and formally having his credentials withdrawn by his home country. In the former case, his children born in the U.S. are definitely U.S. citizens pursuant to the 14th Amendment and U.S. citizenship and naturalization laws. In the later case, the rule is less clear and it may be an issue of first impression not resolved by any prior case law regarding an issue that is arguably ambiguous under the statute.




          Further more, if he failed to take some action to relinquish that
          status, has he committed some crime?




          He has not committed a crime.



          First of all, upon the termination of his diplomatic status, he could have received a tourist visa which is available for several months, as a matter of course, to citizens of many nations who arrive in the U.S. without prior issuance of a visa.



          Second, even if he and his family are present in the United States without any legal visa or citizenship authorizing them to be present in the United States, this merely means that as a civil (i.e. non-criminal) matter, he and his family may be deported. Overstaying a visa is not a crime.



          Also, even he had committed a crime because, for example, after his diplomatic status ended he trafficked sex slaves to pimps in the U.S. in a manner that evaded a port of entry after having previously been convicted of the same offense (which would be a felony), this would not prevent his child, born in the United States while he did not have diplomatic credentials from being a U.S. citizen. Birthright citizenship under the 14th Amendment is available even to people who are illegally present in the United States and are deportable and even if that presence arose from a crime.



          FOOTNOTE ON PROCEDURAL CONSIDERATIONS



          This case also raises some interesting issues of civil procedure and subject-matter jurisdiction.



          Most questions related to immigration and nationalization law are heard in the first instance in Article II (Executive Branch) immigration courts which are administrative law courts, subject to appeal to an appellate Article II administrative law court called the BIA (Board of Immigration Appeals). Appeals from the BIA, in turn, are to the United States Court of Appeals for the appropriate circuit, an Article III (Judicial Branch) intermediate appellate court, and then to the U.S. Supreme Court.



          A handful of questions related to immigration and naturalization law are, or may be, raised in the United States District Courts (an Article III trial court), subject to appeal to the United States Court of Appeals for the appropriate circuit, an Article III (Judicial Branch) intermediate appellate court, and then to the U.S. Supreme Court.



          (I don't have the technical expertise to quickly and accurately summarize which cases belong in Article II immigration courts and which belong in Article III U.S. District Courts without considerable further research, but this isn't necessary to understand the jurisdictional conundrum posed by this case.)



          But, court cases in which diplomats are parties are in the exclusive, original jurisdiction of the U.S. Supreme Court. The pertinent language of Section 2 of Article III of the United States Constitution states:




          The judicial Power shall extend . . . to all Cases affecting
          Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Counsuls . . . In all Cases
          affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls . . . the
          supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction.




          This is tricky in this case, because the crux of the dispute is whether or not the father of the child was a diplomat at the relevant time, which is also the central fact that needs to be determined when one attempts to discern which court has jurisdiction over the case.



          It is further complicated because the issue of subject matter jurisdiction can be raised at any time in a proceeding before it is concluded, or even in a collateral attack on a judgment in a proceeding after judgment is entered, even if the issue wasn't raised by any of the parties at any time in the case. Subject-matter jurisdiction is one of the only issues that judges have a duty to raise sua sponte (i.e. without any prompting from the parties).



          So, even if the father of the child commences an action to determine his child's citizenship in an Article II immigration court or a U.S. District Court, on the theory that he is not a diplomat, any later court considering the case which concludes that he is a diplomat, could vacate all prior proceedings in the case for lack of subject matter jurisdiction and could either dismiss the case, or transfer it to the U.S. Supreme Court which has exclusive original jurisdiction if he was a diplomat at the time of his child's birth.



          (There is no doubt, however, that the questions presented in this case are in the exclusive jurisdiction of the federal courts as opposed to state and local courts, unlike most federal questions over which the federal courts and state courts have concurrent jurisdiction.)






          share|improve this answer


























          • Baring further information (and the accuracy of Muthana's assertion that his diplomatic employ had terminated), it sounds like his daughter is a US citizen.

            – BobE
            4 hours ago











          • @ohwilleke: I was under the impression that overstaying one's I94 or stamp time is only a civil matter if they entered the country in a valid port of entry. Also, it's not really technically overstaying a 'visa' - since visas's are usually issued for years. Correct?

            – mark b
            1 hour ago











          • @markb The vast majority of circumstances that make you deportable are civil matters rather than crimes. The distinction you are making between an I-94 or stamp time and a "visa" is a pretty technical one that is a bit beyond my depth, but not really material for these purposes.

            – ohwilleke
            25 mins ago



















          1














          To supplement ohwilleke's answer (and drawing on a State dept. legal guidance document), there are three categories of "diplomat": diplomatic agents, members of the administrative and technical staff, and members of the service staff. With respect to the current issue, what is relevant is whether a person is subject to the jurisdiction of the US – this is also relevant to the immigration/birthright issue. A diplomatic agent is entirely free of US jurisdiction except in 4 civil areas, unless immunity is waived by the sending state. Family members (spouses and children under 21) have the same immunity that the diplomatic agent has. If A is the minor child of a diplomatic agent B, when B loses immunity, so does A. Administrative staff and their families differ only in that they maybe held civilly liable in a wider range of cases. Service staff only have official act immunity, and their family have no immunity. A further condition is that the diplomat must be a national of the sending state (so an American sent by Norway to represent Norway would not have diplomatic immunity). A US spouse of a foreign diplomat does not have diplomatic immunity.



          The sending state can waive a diplomat's immunity. The above refers to diplomatic staff and not consular staff, who enjoy only official act immunity. Temporary diplomatic staff also do not enjoy immunity. Then there are immunities for personnel of international organizations such as the UN, governed by 22 USC 288. Generally, such personnel enjoy official act immunity but not the strong inviolability enjoyed by diplomatic agents to the US: 22 USC 288d(b) says that




          Representatives of foreign governments in or to international
          organizations and officers and employees of such organizations shall
          be immune from suit and legal process relating to acts performed by
          them in their official capacity and falling within their functions as
          such representatives, officers, or employees
          except insofar as such
          immunity may be waived by the foreign government or international
          organization concerned.




          Paragraph (a) specifies that




          Persons designated by foreign governments to serve as their
          representatives in or to international organizations and the officers
          and employees of such organizations, and members of the immediate
          families of such representatives, officers, and employees residing
          with them, other than nationals of the United States, shall, insofar
          as concerns laws regulating entry into and departure from the United
          States, alien registration and fingerprinting, and the registration of
          foreign agents, be entitled to the same privileges, exemptions, and
          immunities as are accorded under similar circumstances to officers and
          employees, respectively, of foreign governments, and members of their
          families.




          The thing to notice is that (a) only grant "entry into the US" type immunity, not immunity from criminal prosecution.



          There are special cases such as the Sec'y General of the UN, who may be granted diplomatic agent style immunity. The State Dept. document on immunity says that




          The most senior representatives in these missions to international
          organizations have privileges and immunities equivalent to those
          afforded diplomatic agents. The remainder of the staffs of these
          missions have only official acts immunity pursuant to the
          International Organizations Immunities Act and no personal
          inviolability.




          I believe that this will be the primary area of legal debate: what is the meaning of "subject to jurisdiction". It is highly unlikely that the courts will interpret "official act immunity" as meaning "not subject to US jurisdiction".






          share|improve this answer
























          • While interesting, the discussion of immunity (in it's various forms) seems irrelevant to whether Hoda Muthana was a US citizen when she was born.

            – BobE
            4 hours ago






          • 1





            No, it is entirely relevant, because that is the legal underpinning of the birthright nationality question, as established in Wong Ark Kim.

            – user6726
            4 hours ago











          • The legal underpinning of the birthright citizenship is the 14th amendment. Are you arguing that Hoda Muthana was never under US jurisdiction?

            – BobE
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            No, I am stating that her citizenship status reduces to whether or not her father was subject to US jurisdiction, which will be decided on the basis of immunity.

            – user6726
            2 hours ago











          • 1) I agree that her status is dependent on the status of her father's immunity, HOWEVER, her father would have no immunity if his diplomatic status had been terminated. The determination of his diplomatic status (at the time of her birth) is controlling on her citizenship status.

            – BobE
            33 mins ago











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          3















          His statement suggests that he was at one time employed in a
          diplomatic function (and that assumes that he had diplomatic "papers"
          because of his employ), how does one lose that status, and is there
          any action that he is required to take to relinquish that status?




          Diplomatic personnel with official diplomatic status under the relevant treaties and for purposes of U.S. naturalization laws are credentialed by the U.S. Department of State. When an embassy and consulate wants to bring in a new diplomat, it provides their credentials to the State Department, which must approve the grant of diplomatic status to the person, although this decision is given very broad deference in practice.



          The State Department could decline to credential someone due to an individualized history of prior misconduct (e.g. a known serial killer or war criminal who escaped prosecution due to diplomatic immunity), because the regime seeking to have the diplomat credentialed is no longer recognized as legitimate by the United States (e.g. the Assad regime of Syria), or because the total number of diplomats is excessive (e.g. if Luxembourg wanted to credential 1000 diplomats in the U.S.).



          Mostly, however, the credentialing process is important because a diplomat's credentials can be revoked. This is usually done either in response to the individualized conduct of a particular person (for example, the person is discovered to be a spy with a diplomatic cover who is actively stealing key secrets from the United States), or as a symbolic form of sanctions for conduct of the diplomat's country of which the United States does not approve. For example, many countries revoked the credentials of many Russian diplomats after Russia assassinated a former Russian spy in Britain.



          When a diplomat ends a tour of service in the United States, that diplomat's credentials are supposed to be withdrawn, in part, to prevent the number of credentialed diplomats from their country in the U.S. from being excessive. A credentialed diplomat is not required to be in the U.S. 24/7 while the credentials are in place. But, the country has some mild incentives not to have too many absentee diplomats. (The U.S. State Department could also unilaterally revoke the credentials of a diplomat known to be a long time absentee.)



          It isn't clear to me in this case, if this individual's credentials had actually been formally withdrawn yet, or if he and his family were in the gap period between terminating his employment in the U.S. with the embassy and formally having his credentials withdrawn by his home country. In the former case, his children born in the U.S. are definitely U.S. citizens pursuant to the 14th Amendment and U.S. citizenship and naturalization laws. In the later case, the rule is less clear and it may be an issue of first impression not resolved by any prior case law regarding an issue that is arguably ambiguous under the statute.




          Further more, if he failed to take some action to relinquish that
          status, has he committed some crime?




          He has not committed a crime.



          First of all, upon the termination of his diplomatic status, he could have received a tourist visa which is available for several months, as a matter of course, to citizens of many nations who arrive in the U.S. without prior issuance of a visa.



          Second, even if he and his family are present in the United States without any legal visa or citizenship authorizing them to be present in the United States, this merely means that as a civil (i.e. non-criminal) matter, he and his family may be deported. Overstaying a visa is not a crime.



          Also, even he had committed a crime because, for example, after his diplomatic status ended he trafficked sex slaves to pimps in the U.S. in a manner that evaded a port of entry after having previously been convicted of the same offense (which would be a felony), this would not prevent his child, born in the United States while he did not have diplomatic credentials from being a U.S. citizen. Birthright citizenship under the 14th Amendment is available even to people who are illegally present in the United States and are deportable and even if that presence arose from a crime.



          FOOTNOTE ON PROCEDURAL CONSIDERATIONS



          This case also raises some interesting issues of civil procedure and subject-matter jurisdiction.



          Most questions related to immigration and nationalization law are heard in the first instance in Article II (Executive Branch) immigration courts which are administrative law courts, subject to appeal to an appellate Article II administrative law court called the BIA (Board of Immigration Appeals). Appeals from the BIA, in turn, are to the United States Court of Appeals for the appropriate circuit, an Article III (Judicial Branch) intermediate appellate court, and then to the U.S. Supreme Court.



          A handful of questions related to immigration and naturalization law are, or may be, raised in the United States District Courts (an Article III trial court), subject to appeal to the United States Court of Appeals for the appropriate circuit, an Article III (Judicial Branch) intermediate appellate court, and then to the U.S. Supreme Court.



          (I don't have the technical expertise to quickly and accurately summarize which cases belong in Article II immigration courts and which belong in Article III U.S. District Courts without considerable further research, but this isn't necessary to understand the jurisdictional conundrum posed by this case.)



          But, court cases in which diplomats are parties are in the exclusive, original jurisdiction of the U.S. Supreme Court. The pertinent language of Section 2 of Article III of the United States Constitution states:




          The judicial Power shall extend . . . to all Cases affecting
          Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Counsuls . . . In all Cases
          affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls . . . the
          supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction.




          This is tricky in this case, because the crux of the dispute is whether or not the father of the child was a diplomat at the relevant time, which is also the central fact that needs to be determined when one attempts to discern which court has jurisdiction over the case.



          It is further complicated because the issue of subject matter jurisdiction can be raised at any time in a proceeding before it is concluded, or even in a collateral attack on a judgment in a proceeding after judgment is entered, even if the issue wasn't raised by any of the parties at any time in the case. Subject-matter jurisdiction is one of the only issues that judges have a duty to raise sua sponte (i.e. without any prompting from the parties).



          So, even if the father of the child commences an action to determine his child's citizenship in an Article II immigration court or a U.S. District Court, on the theory that he is not a diplomat, any later court considering the case which concludes that he is a diplomat, could vacate all prior proceedings in the case for lack of subject matter jurisdiction and could either dismiss the case, or transfer it to the U.S. Supreme Court which has exclusive original jurisdiction if he was a diplomat at the time of his child's birth.



          (There is no doubt, however, that the questions presented in this case are in the exclusive jurisdiction of the federal courts as opposed to state and local courts, unlike most federal questions over which the federal courts and state courts have concurrent jurisdiction.)






          share|improve this answer


























          • Baring further information (and the accuracy of Muthana's assertion that his diplomatic employ had terminated), it sounds like his daughter is a US citizen.

            – BobE
            4 hours ago











          • @ohwilleke: I was under the impression that overstaying one's I94 or stamp time is only a civil matter if they entered the country in a valid port of entry. Also, it's not really technically overstaying a 'visa' - since visas's are usually issued for years. Correct?

            – mark b
            1 hour ago











          • @markb The vast majority of circumstances that make you deportable are civil matters rather than crimes. The distinction you are making between an I-94 or stamp time and a "visa" is a pretty technical one that is a bit beyond my depth, but not really material for these purposes.

            – ohwilleke
            25 mins ago
















          3















          His statement suggests that he was at one time employed in a
          diplomatic function (and that assumes that he had diplomatic "papers"
          because of his employ), how does one lose that status, and is there
          any action that he is required to take to relinquish that status?




          Diplomatic personnel with official diplomatic status under the relevant treaties and for purposes of U.S. naturalization laws are credentialed by the U.S. Department of State. When an embassy and consulate wants to bring in a new diplomat, it provides their credentials to the State Department, which must approve the grant of diplomatic status to the person, although this decision is given very broad deference in practice.



          The State Department could decline to credential someone due to an individualized history of prior misconduct (e.g. a known serial killer or war criminal who escaped prosecution due to diplomatic immunity), because the regime seeking to have the diplomat credentialed is no longer recognized as legitimate by the United States (e.g. the Assad regime of Syria), or because the total number of diplomats is excessive (e.g. if Luxembourg wanted to credential 1000 diplomats in the U.S.).



          Mostly, however, the credentialing process is important because a diplomat's credentials can be revoked. This is usually done either in response to the individualized conduct of a particular person (for example, the person is discovered to be a spy with a diplomatic cover who is actively stealing key secrets from the United States), or as a symbolic form of sanctions for conduct of the diplomat's country of which the United States does not approve. For example, many countries revoked the credentials of many Russian diplomats after Russia assassinated a former Russian spy in Britain.



          When a diplomat ends a tour of service in the United States, that diplomat's credentials are supposed to be withdrawn, in part, to prevent the number of credentialed diplomats from their country in the U.S. from being excessive. A credentialed diplomat is not required to be in the U.S. 24/7 while the credentials are in place. But, the country has some mild incentives not to have too many absentee diplomats. (The U.S. State Department could also unilaterally revoke the credentials of a diplomat known to be a long time absentee.)



          It isn't clear to me in this case, if this individual's credentials had actually been formally withdrawn yet, or if he and his family were in the gap period between terminating his employment in the U.S. with the embassy and formally having his credentials withdrawn by his home country. In the former case, his children born in the U.S. are definitely U.S. citizens pursuant to the 14th Amendment and U.S. citizenship and naturalization laws. In the later case, the rule is less clear and it may be an issue of first impression not resolved by any prior case law regarding an issue that is arguably ambiguous under the statute.




          Further more, if he failed to take some action to relinquish that
          status, has he committed some crime?




          He has not committed a crime.



          First of all, upon the termination of his diplomatic status, he could have received a tourist visa which is available for several months, as a matter of course, to citizens of many nations who arrive in the U.S. without prior issuance of a visa.



          Second, even if he and his family are present in the United States without any legal visa or citizenship authorizing them to be present in the United States, this merely means that as a civil (i.e. non-criminal) matter, he and his family may be deported. Overstaying a visa is not a crime.



          Also, even he had committed a crime because, for example, after his diplomatic status ended he trafficked sex slaves to pimps in the U.S. in a manner that evaded a port of entry after having previously been convicted of the same offense (which would be a felony), this would not prevent his child, born in the United States while he did not have diplomatic credentials from being a U.S. citizen. Birthright citizenship under the 14th Amendment is available even to people who are illegally present in the United States and are deportable and even if that presence arose from a crime.



          FOOTNOTE ON PROCEDURAL CONSIDERATIONS



          This case also raises some interesting issues of civil procedure and subject-matter jurisdiction.



          Most questions related to immigration and nationalization law are heard in the first instance in Article II (Executive Branch) immigration courts which are administrative law courts, subject to appeal to an appellate Article II administrative law court called the BIA (Board of Immigration Appeals). Appeals from the BIA, in turn, are to the United States Court of Appeals for the appropriate circuit, an Article III (Judicial Branch) intermediate appellate court, and then to the U.S. Supreme Court.



          A handful of questions related to immigration and naturalization law are, or may be, raised in the United States District Courts (an Article III trial court), subject to appeal to the United States Court of Appeals for the appropriate circuit, an Article III (Judicial Branch) intermediate appellate court, and then to the U.S. Supreme Court.



          (I don't have the technical expertise to quickly and accurately summarize which cases belong in Article II immigration courts and which belong in Article III U.S. District Courts without considerable further research, but this isn't necessary to understand the jurisdictional conundrum posed by this case.)



          But, court cases in which diplomats are parties are in the exclusive, original jurisdiction of the U.S. Supreme Court. The pertinent language of Section 2 of Article III of the United States Constitution states:




          The judicial Power shall extend . . . to all Cases affecting
          Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Counsuls . . . In all Cases
          affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls . . . the
          supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction.




          This is tricky in this case, because the crux of the dispute is whether or not the father of the child was a diplomat at the relevant time, which is also the central fact that needs to be determined when one attempts to discern which court has jurisdiction over the case.



          It is further complicated because the issue of subject matter jurisdiction can be raised at any time in a proceeding before it is concluded, or even in a collateral attack on a judgment in a proceeding after judgment is entered, even if the issue wasn't raised by any of the parties at any time in the case. Subject-matter jurisdiction is one of the only issues that judges have a duty to raise sua sponte (i.e. without any prompting from the parties).



          So, even if the father of the child commences an action to determine his child's citizenship in an Article II immigration court or a U.S. District Court, on the theory that he is not a diplomat, any later court considering the case which concludes that he is a diplomat, could vacate all prior proceedings in the case for lack of subject matter jurisdiction and could either dismiss the case, or transfer it to the U.S. Supreme Court which has exclusive original jurisdiction if he was a diplomat at the time of his child's birth.



          (There is no doubt, however, that the questions presented in this case are in the exclusive jurisdiction of the federal courts as opposed to state and local courts, unlike most federal questions over which the federal courts and state courts have concurrent jurisdiction.)






          share|improve this answer


























          • Baring further information (and the accuracy of Muthana's assertion that his diplomatic employ had terminated), it sounds like his daughter is a US citizen.

            – BobE
            4 hours ago











          • @ohwilleke: I was under the impression that overstaying one's I94 or stamp time is only a civil matter if they entered the country in a valid port of entry. Also, it's not really technically overstaying a 'visa' - since visas's are usually issued for years. Correct?

            – mark b
            1 hour ago











          • @markb The vast majority of circumstances that make you deportable are civil matters rather than crimes. The distinction you are making between an I-94 or stamp time and a "visa" is a pretty technical one that is a bit beyond my depth, but not really material for these purposes.

            – ohwilleke
            25 mins ago














          3












          3








          3








          His statement suggests that he was at one time employed in a
          diplomatic function (and that assumes that he had diplomatic "papers"
          because of his employ), how does one lose that status, and is there
          any action that he is required to take to relinquish that status?




          Diplomatic personnel with official diplomatic status under the relevant treaties and for purposes of U.S. naturalization laws are credentialed by the U.S. Department of State. When an embassy and consulate wants to bring in a new diplomat, it provides their credentials to the State Department, which must approve the grant of diplomatic status to the person, although this decision is given very broad deference in practice.



          The State Department could decline to credential someone due to an individualized history of prior misconduct (e.g. a known serial killer or war criminal who escaped prosecution due to diplomatic immunity), because the regime seeking to have the diplomat credentialed is no longer recognized as legitimate by the United States (e.g. the Assad regime of Syria), or because the total number of diplomats is excessive (e.g. if Luxembourg wanted to credential 1000 diplomats in the U.S.).



          Mostly, however, the credentialing process is important because a diplomat's credentials can be revoked. This is usually done either in response to the individualized conduct of a particular person (for example, the person is discovered to be a spy with a diplomatic cover who is actively stealing key secrets from the United States), or as a symbolic form of sanctions for conduct of the diplomat's country of which the United States does not approve. For example, many countries revoked the credentials of many Russian diplomats after Russia assassinated a former Russian spy in Britain.



          When a diplomat ends a tour of service in the United States, that diplomat's credentials are supposed to be withdrawn, in part, to prevent the number of credentialed diplomats from their country in the U.S. from being excessive. A credentialed diplomat is not required to be in the U.S. 24/7 while the credentials are in place. But, the country has some mild incentives not to have too many absentee diplomats. (The U.S. State Department could also unilaterally revoke the credentials of a diplomat known to be a long time absentee.)



          It isn't clear to me in this case, if this individual's credentials had actually been formally withdrawn yet, or if he and his family were in the gap period between terminating his employment in the U.S. with the embassy and formally having his credentials withdrawn by his home country. In the former case, his children born in the U.S. are definitely U.S. citizens pursuant to the 14th Amendment and U.S. citizenship and naturalization laws. In the later case, the rule is less clear and it may be an issue of first impression not resolved by any prior case law regarding an issue that is arguably ambiguous under the statute.




          Further more, if he failed to take some action to relinquish that
          status, has he committed some crime?




          He has not committed a crime.



          First of all, upon the termination of his diplomatic status, he could have received a tourist visa which is available for several months, as a matter of course, to citizens of many nations who arrive in the U.S. without prior issuance of a visa.



          Second, even if he and his family are present in the United States without any legal visa or citizenship authorizing them to be present in the United States, this merely means that as a civil (i.e. non-criminal) matter, he and his family may be deported. Overstaying a visa is not a crime.



          Also, even he had committed a crime because, for example, after his diplomatic status ended he trafficked sex slaves to pimps in the U.S. in a manner that evaded a port of entry after having previously been convicted of the same offense (which would be a felony), this would not prevent his child, born in the United States while he did not have diplomatic credentials from being a U.S. citizen. Birthright citizenship under the 14th Amendment is available even to people who are illegally present in the United States and are deportable and even if that presence arose from a crime.



          FOOTNOTE ON PROCEDURAL CONSIDERATIONS



          This case also raises some interesting issues of civil procedure and subject-matter jurisdiction.



          Most questions related to immigration and nationalization law are heard in the first instance in Article II (Executive Branch) immigration courts which are administrative law courts, subject to appeal to an appellate Article II administrative law court called the BIA (Board of Immigration Appeals). Appeals from the BIA, in turn, are to the United States Court of Appeals for the appropriate circuit, an Article III (Judicial Branch) intermediate appellate court, and then to the U.S. Supreme Court.



          A handful of questions related to immigration and naturalization law are, or may be, raised in the United States District Courts (an Article III trial court), subject to appeal to the United States Court of Appeals for the appropriate circuit, an Article III (Judicial Branch) intermediate appellate court, and then to the U.S. Supreme Court.



          (I don't have the technical expertise to quickly and accurately summarize which cases belong in Article II immigration courts and which belong in Article III U.S. District Courts without considerable further research, but this isn't necessary to understand the jurisdictional conundrum posed by this case.)



          But, court cases in which diplomats are parties are in the exclusive, original jurisdiction of the U.S. Supreme Court. The pertinent language of Section 2 of Article III of the United States Constitution states:




          The judicial Power shall extend . . . to all Cases affecting
          Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Counsuls . . . In all Cases
          affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls . . . the
          supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction.




          This is tricky in this case, because the crux of the dispute is whether or not the father of the child was a diplomat at the relevant time, which is also the central fact that needs to be determined when one attempts to discern which court has jurisdiction over the case.



          It is further complicated because the issue of subject matter jurisdiction can be raised at any time in a proceeding before it is concluded, or even in a collateral attack on a judgment in a proceeding after judgment is entered, even if the issue wasn't raised by any of the parties at any time in the case. Subject-matter jurisdiction is one of the only issues that judges have a duty to raise sua sponte (i.e. without any prompting from the parties).



          So, even if the father of the child commences an action to determine his child's citizenship in an Article II immigration court or a U.S. District Court, on the theory that he is not a diplomat, any later court considering the case which concludes that he is a diplomat, could vacate all prior proceedings in the case for lack of subject matter jurisdiction and could either dismiss the case, or transfer it to the U.S. Supreme Court which has exclusive original jurisdiction if he was a diplomat at the time of his child's birth.



          (There is no doubt, however, that the questions presented in this case are in the exclusive jurisdiction of the federal courts as opposed to state and local courts, unlike most federal questions over which the federal courts and state courts have concurrent jurisdiction.)






          share|improve this answer
















          His statement suggests that he was at one time employed in a
          diplomatic function (and that assumes that he had diplomatic "papers"
          because of his employ), how does one lose that status, and is there
          any action that he is required to take to relinquish that status?




          Diplomatic personnel with official diplomatic status under the relevant treaties and for purposes of U.S. naturalization laws are credentialed by the U.S. Department of State. When an embassy and consulate wants to bring in a new diplomat, it provides their credentials to the State Department, which must approve the grant of diplomatic status to the person, although this decision is given very broad deference in practice.



          The State Department could decline to credential someone due to an individualized history of prior misconduct (e.g. a known serial killer or war criminal who escaped prosecution due to diplomatic immunity), because the regime seeking to have the diplomat credentialed is no longer recognized as legitimate by the United States (e.g. the Assad regime of Syria), or because the total number of diplomats is excessive (e.g. if Luxembourg wanted to credential 1000 diplomats in the U.S.).



          Mostly, however, the credentialing process is important because a diplomat's credentials can be revoked. This is usually done either in response to the individualized conduct of a particular person (for example, the person is discovered to be a spy with a diplomatic cover who is actively stealing key secrets from the United States), or as a symbolic form of sanctions for conduct of the diplomat's country of which the United States does not approve. For example, many countries revoked the credentials of many Russian diplomats after Russia assassinated a former Russian spy in Britain.



          When a diplomat ends a tour of service in the United States, that diplomat's credentials are supposed to be withdrawn, in part, to prevent the number of credentialed diplomats from their country in the U.S. from being excessive. A credentialed diplomat is not required to be in the U.S. 24/7 while the credentials are in place. But, the country has some mild incentives not to have too many absentee diplomats. (The U.S. State Department could also unilaterally revoke the credentials of a diplomat known to be a long time absentee.)



          It isn't clear to me in this case, if this individual's credentials had actually been formally withdrawn yet, or if he and his family were in the gap period between terminating his employment in the U.S. with the embassy and formally having his credentials withdrawn by his home country. In the former case, his children born in the U.S. are definitely U.S. citizens pursuant to the 14th Amendment and U.S. citizenship and naturalization laws. In the later case, the rule is less clear and it may be an issue of first impression not resolved by any prior case law regarding an issue that is arguably ambiguous under the statute.




          Further more, if he failed to take some action to relinquish that
          status, has he committed some crime?




          He has not committed a crime.



          First of all, upon the termination of his diplomatic status, he could have received a tourist visa which is available for several months, as a matter of course, to citizens of many nations who arrive in the U.S. without prior issuance of a visa.



          Second, even if he and his family are present in the United States without any legal visa or citizenship authorizing them to be present in the United States, this merely means that as a civil (i.e. non-criminal) matter, he and his family may be deported. Overstaying a visa is not a crime.



          Also, even he had committed a crime because, for example, after his diplomatic status ended he trafficked sex slaves to pimps in the U.S. in a manner that evaded a port of entry after having previously been convicted of the same offense (which would be a felony), this would not prevent his child, born in the United States while he did not have diplomatic credentials from being a U.S. citizen. Birthright citizenship under the 14th Amendment is available even to people who are illegally present in the United States and are deportable and even if that presence arose from a crime.



          FOOTNOTE ON PROCEDURAL CONSIDERATIONS



          This case also raises some interesting issues of civil procedure and subject-matter jurisdiction.



          Most questions related to immigration and nationalization law are heard in the first instance in Article II (Executive Branch) immigration courts which are administrative law courts, subject to appeal to an appellate Article II administrative law court called the BIA (Board of Immigration Appeals). Appeals from the BIA, in turn, are to the United States Court of Appeals for the appropriate circuit, an Article III (Judicial Branch) intermediate appellate court, and then to the U.S. Supreme Court.



          A handful of questions related to immigration and naturalization law are, or may be, raised in the United States District Courts (an Article III trial court), subject to appeal to the United States Court of Appeals for the appropriate circuit, an Article III (Judicial Branch) intermediate appellate court, and then to the U.S. Supreme Court.



          (I don't have the technical expertise to quickly and accurately summarize which cases belong in Article II immigration courts and which belong in Article III U.S. District Courts without considerable further research, but this isn't necessary to understand the jurisdictional conundrum posed by this case.)



          But, court cases in which diplomats are parties are in the exclusive, original jurisdiction of the U.S. Supreme Court. The pertinent language of Section 2 of Article III of the United States Constitution states:




          The judicial Power shall extend . . . to all Cases affecting
          Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Counsuls . . . In all Cases
          affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls . . . the
          supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction.




          This is tricky in this case, because the crux of the dispute is whether or not the father of the child was a diplomat at the relevant time, which is also the central fact that needs to be determined when one attempts to discern which court has jurisdiction over the case.



          It is further complicated because the issue of subject matter jurisdiction can be raised at any time in a proceeding before it is concluded, or even in a collateral attack on a judgment in a proceeding after judgment is entered, even if the issue wasn't raised by any of the parties at any time in the case. Subject-matter jurisdiction is one of the only issues that judges have a duty to raise sua sponte (i.e. without any prompting from the parties).



          So, even if the father of the child commences an action to determine his child's citizenship in an Article II immigration court or a U.S. District Court, on the theory that he is not a diplomat, any later court considering the case which concludes that he is a diplomat, could vacate all prior proceedings in the case for lack of subject matter jurisdiction and could either dismiss the case, or transfer it to the U.S. Supreme Court which has exclusive original jurisdiction if he was a diplomat at the time of his child's birth.



          (There is no doubt, however, that the questions presented in this case are in the exclusive jurisdiction of the federal courts as opposed to state and local courts, unlike most federal questions over which the federal courts and state courts have concurrent jurisdiction.)







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 4 mins ago

























          answered 5 hours ago









          ohwillekeohwilleke

          49.5k256127




          49.5k256127













          • Baring further information (and the accuracy of Muthana's assertion that his diplomatic employ had terminated), it sounds like his daughter is a US citizen.

            – BobE
            4 hours ago











          • @ohwilleke: I was under the impression that overstaying one's I94 or stamp time is only a civil matter if they entered the country in a valid port of entry. Also, it's not really technically overstaying a 'visa' - since visas's are usually issued for years. Correct?

            – mark b
            1 hour ago











          • @markb The vast majority of circumstances that make you deportable are civil matters rather than crimes. The distinction you are making between an I-94 or stamp time and a "visa" is a pretty technical one that is a bit beyond my depth, but not really material for these purposes.

            – ohwilleke
            25 mins ago



















          • Baring further information (and the accuracy of Muthana's assertion that his diplomatic employ had terminated), it sounds like his daughter is a US citizen.

            – BobE
            4 hours ago











          • @ohwilleke: I was under the impression that overstaying one's I94 or stamp time is only a civil matter if they entered the country in a valid port of entry. Also, it's not really technically overstaying a 'visa' - since visas's are usually issued for years. Correct?

            – mark b
            1 hour ago











          • @markb The vast majority of circumstances that make you deportable are civil matters rather than crimes. The distinction you are making between an I-94 or stamp time and a "visa" is a pretty technical one that is a bit beyond my depth, but not really material for these purposes.

            – ohwilleke
            25 mins ago

















          Baring further information (and the accuracy of Muthana's assertion that his diplomatic employ had terminated), it sounds like his daughter is a US citizen.

          – BobE
          4 hours ago





          Baring further information (and the accuracy of Muthana's assertion that his diplomatic employ had terminated), it sounds like his daughter is a US citizen.

          – BobE
          4 hours ago













          @ohwilleke: I was under the impression that overstaying one's I94 or stamp time is only a civil matter if they entered the country in a valid port of entry. Also, it's not really technically overstaying a 'visa' - since visas's are usually issued for years. Correct?

          – mark b
          1 hour ago





          @ohwilleke: I was under the impression that overstaying one's I94 or stamp time is only a civil matter if they entered the country in a valid port of entry. Also, it's not really technically overstaying a 'visa' - since visas's are usually issued for years. Correct?

          – mark b
          1 hour ago













          @markb The vast majority of circumstances that make you deportable are civil matters rather than crimes. The distinction you are making between an I-94 or stamp time and a "visa" is a pretty technical one that is a bit beyond my depth, but not really material for these purposes.

          – ohwilleke
          25 mins ago





          @markb The vast majority of circumstances that make you deportable are civil matters rather than crimes. The distinction you are making between an I-94 or stamp time and a "visa" is a pretty technical one that is a bit beyond my depth, but not really material for these purposes.

          – ohwilleke
          25 mins ago











          1














          To supplement ohwilleke's answer (and drawing on a State dept. legal guidance document), there are three categories of "diplomat": diplomatic agents, members of the administrative and technical staff, and members of the service staff. With respect to the current issue, what is relevant is whether a person is subject to the jurisdiction of the US – this is also relevant to the immigration/birthright issue. A diplomatic agent is entirely free of US jurisdiction except in 4 civil areas, unless immunity is waived by the sending state. Family members (spouses and children under 21) have the same immunity that the diplomatic agent has. If A is the minor child of a diplomatic agent B, when B loses immunity, so does A. Administrative staff and their families differ only in that they maybe held civilly liable in a wider range of cases. Service staff only have official act immunity, and their family have no immunity. A further condition is that the diplomat must be a national of the sending state (so an American sent by Norway to represent Norway would not have diplomatic immunity). A US spouse of a foreign diplomat does not have diplomatic immunity.



          The sending state can waive a diplomat's immunity. The above refers to diplomatic staff and not consular staff, who enjoy only official act immunity. Temporary diplomatic staff also do not enjoy immunity. Then there are immunities for personnel of international organizations such as the UN, governed by 22 USC 288. Generally, such personnel enjoy official act immunity but not the strong inviolability enjoyed by diplomatic agents to the US: 22 USC 288d(b) says that




          Representatives of foreign governments in or to international
          organizations and officers and employees of such organizations shall
          be immune from suit and legal process relating to acts performed by
          them in their official capacity and falling within their functions as
          such representatives, officers, or employees
          except insofar as such
          immunity may be waived by the foreign government or international
          organization concerned.




          Paragraph (a) specifies that




          Persons designated by foreign governments to serve as their
          representatives in or to international organizations and the officers
          and employees of such organizations, and members of the immediate
          families of such representatives, officers, and employees residing
          with them, other than nationals of the United States, shall, insofar
          as concerns laws regulating entry into and departure from the United
          States, alien registration and fingerprinting, and the registration of
          foreign agents, be entitled to the same privileges, exemptions, and
          immunities as are accorded under similar circumstances to officers and
          employees, respectively, of foreign governments, and members of their
          families.




          The thing to notice is that (a) only grant "entry into the US" type immunity, not immunity from criminal prosecution.



          There are special cases such as the Sec'y General of the UN, who may be granted diplomatic agent style immunity. The State Dept. document on immunity says that




          The most senior representatives in these missions to international
          organizations have privileges and immunities equivalent to those
          afforded diplomatic agents. The remainder of the staffs of these
          missions have only official acts immunity pursuant to the
          International Organizations Immunities Act and no personal
          inviolability.




          I believe that this will be the primary area of legal debate: what is the meaning of "subject to jurisdiction". It is highly unlikely that the courts will interpret "official act immunity" as meaning "not subject to US jurisdiction".






          share|improve this answer
























          • While interesting, the discussion of immunity (in it's various forms) seems irrelevant to whether Hoda Muthana was a US citizen when she was born.

            – BobE
            4 hours ago






          • 1





            No, it is entirely relevant, because that is the legal underpinning of the birthright nationality question, as established in Wong Ark Kim.

            – user6726
            4 hours ago











          • The legal underpinning of the birthright citizenship is the 14th amendment. Are you arguing that Hoda Muthana was never under US jurisdiction?

            – BobE
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            No, I am stating that her citizenship status reduces to whether or not her father was subject to US jurisdiction, which will be decided on the basis of immunity.

            – user6726
            2 hours ago











          • 1) I agree that her status is dependent on the status of her father's immunity, HOWEVER, her father would have no immunity if his diplomatic status had been terminated. The determination of his diplomatic status (at the time of her birth) is controlling on her citizenship status.

            – BobE
            33 mins ago
















          1














          To supplement ohwilleke's answer (and drawing on a State dept. legal guidance document), there are three categories of "diplomat": diplomatic agents, members of the administrative and technical staff, and members of the service staff. With respect to the current issue, what is relevant is whether a person is subject to the jurisdiction of the US – this is also relevant to the immigration/birthright issue. A diplomatic agent is entirely free of US jurisdiction except in 4 civil areas, unless immunity is waived by the sending state. Family members (spouses and children under 21) have the same immunity that the diplomatic agent has. If A is the minor child of a diplomatic agent B, when B loses immunity, so does A. Administrative staff and their families differ only in that they maybe held civilly liable in a wider range of cases. Service staff only have official act immunity, and their family have no immunity. A further condition is that the diplomat must be a national of the sending state (so an American sent by Norway to represent Norway would not have diplomatic immunity). A US spouse of a foreign diplomat does not have diplomatic immunity.



          The sending state can waive a diplomat's immunity. The above refers to diplomatic staff and not consular staff, who enjoy only official act immunity. Temporary diplomatic staff also do not enjoy immunity. Then there are immunities for personnel of international organizations such as the UN, governed by 22 USC 288. Generally, such personnel enjoy official act immunity but not the strong inviolability enjoyed by diplomatic agents to the US: 22 USC 288d(b) says that




          Representatives of foreign governments in or to international
          organizations and officers and employees of such organizations shall
          be immune from suit and legal process relating to acts performed by
          them in their official capacity and falling within their functions as
          such representatives, officers, or employees
          except insofar as such
          immunity may be waived by the foreign government or international
          organization concerned.




          Paragraph (a) specifies that




          Persons designated by foreign governments to serve as their
          representatives in or to international organizations and the officers
          and employees of such organizations, and members of the immediate
          families of such representatives, officers, and employees residing
          with them, other than nationals of the United States, shall, insofar
          as concerns laws regulating entry into and departure from the United
          States, alien registration and fingerprinting, and the registration of
          foreign agents, be entitled to the same privileges, exemptions, and
          immunities as are accorded under similar circumstances to officers and
          employees, respectively, of foreign governments, and members of their
          families.




          The thing to notice is that (a) only grant "entry into the US" type immunity, not immunity from criminal prosecution.



          There are special cases such as the Sec'y General of the UN, who may be granted diplomatic agent style immunity. The State Dept. document on immunity says that




          The most senior representatives in these missions to international
          organizations have privileges and immunities equivalent to those
          afforded diplomatic agents. The remainder of the staffs of these
          missions have only official acts immunity pursuant to the
          International Organizations Immunities Act and no personal
          inviolability.




          I believe that this will be the primary area of legal debate: what is the meaning of "subject to jurisdiction". It is highly unlikely that the courts will interpret "official act immunity" as meaning "not subject to US jurisdiction".






          share|improve this answer
























          • While interesting, the discussion of immunity (in it's various forms) seems irrelevant to whether Hoda Muthana was a US citizen when she was born.

            – BobE
            4 hours ago






          • 1





            No, it is entirely relevant, because that is the legal underpinning of the birthright nationality question, as established in Wong Ark Kim.

            – user6726
            4 hours ago











          • The legal underpinning of the birthright citizenship is the 14th amendment. Are you arguing that Hoda Muthana was never under US jurisdiction?

            – BobE
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            No, I am stating that her citizenship status reduces to whether or not her father was subject to US jurisdiction, which will be decided on the basis of immunity.

            – user6726
            2 hours ago











          • 1) I agree that her status is dependent on the status of her father's immunity, HOWEVER, her father would have no immunity if his diplomatic status had been terminated. The determination of his diplomatic status (at the time of her birth) is controlling on her citizenship status.

            – BobE
            33 mins ago














          1












          1








          1







          To supplement ohwilleke's answer (and drawing on a State dept. legal guidance document), there are three categories of "diplomat": diplomatic agents, members of the administrative and technical staff, and members of the service staff. With respect to the current issue, what is relevant is whether a person is subject to the jurisdiction of the US – this is also relevant to the immigration/birthright issue. A diplomatic agent is entirely free of US jurisdiction except in 4 civil areas, unless immunity is waived by the sending state. Family members (spouses and children under 21) have the same immunity that the diplomatic agent has. If A is the minor child of a diplomatic agent B, when B loses immunity, so does A. Administrative staff and their families differ only in that they maybe held civilly liable in a wider range of cases. Service staff only have official act immunity, and their family have no immunity. A further condition is that the diplomat must be a national of the sending state (so an American sent by Norway to represent Norway would not have diplomatic immunity). A US spouse of a foreign diplomat does not have diplomatic immunity.



          The sending state can waive a diplomat's immunity. The above refers to diplomatic staff and not consular staff, who enjoy only official act immunity. Temporary diplomatic staff also do not enjoy immunity. Then there are immunities for personnel of international organizations such as the UN, governed by 22 USC 288. Generally, such personnel enjoy official act immunity but not the strong inviolability enjoyed by diplomatic agents to the US: 22 USC 288d(b) says that




          Representatives of foreign governments in or to international
          organizations and officers and employees of such organizations shall
          be immune from suit and legal process relating to acts performed by
          them in their official capacity and falling within their functions as
          such representatives, officers, or employees
          except insofar as such
          immunity may be waived by the foreign government or international
          organization concerned.




          Paragraph (a) specifies that




          Persons designated by foreign governments to serve as their
          representatives in or to international organizations and the officers
          and employees of such organizations, and members of the immediate
          families of such representatives, officers, and employees residing
          with them, other than nationals of the United States, shall, insofar
          as concerns laws regulating entry into and departure from the United
          States, alien registration and fingerprinting, and the registration of
          foreign agents, be entitled to the same privileges, exemptions, and
          immunities as are accorded under similar circumstances to officers and
          employees, respectively, of foreign governments, and members of their
          families.




          The thing to notice is that (a) only grant "entry into the US" type immunity, not immunity from criminal prosecution.



          There are special cases such as the Sec'y General of the UN, who may be granted diplomatic agent style immunity. The State Dept. document on immunity says that




          The most senior representatives in these missions to international
          organizations have privileges and immunities equivalent to those
          afforded diplomatic agents. The remainder of the staffs of these
          missions have only official acts immunity pursuant to the
          International Organizations Immunities Act and no personal
          inviolability.




          I believe that this will be the primary area of legal debate: what is the meaning of "subject to jurisdiction". It is highly unlikely that the courts will interpret "official act immunity" as meaning "not subject to US jurisdiction".






          share|improve this answer













          To supplement ohwilleke's answer (and drawing on a State dept. legal guidance document), there are three categories of "diplomat": diplomatic agents, members of the administrative and technical staff, and members of the service staff. With respect to the current issue, what is relevant is whether a person is subject to the jurisdiction of the US – this is also relevant to the immigration/birthright issue. A diplomatic agent is entirely free of US jurisdiction except in 4 civil areas, unless immunity is waived by the sending state. Family members (spouses and children under 21) have the same immunity that the diplomatic agent has. If A is the minor child of a diplomatic agent B, when B loses immunity, so does A. Administrative staff and their families differ only in that they maybe held civilly liable in a wider range of cases. Service staff only have official act immunity, and their family have no immunity. A further condition is that the diplomat must be a national of the sending state (so an American sent by Norway to represent Norway would not have diplomatic immunity). A US spouse of a foreign diplomat does not have diplomatic immunity.



          The sending state can waive a diplomat's immunity. The above refers to diplomatic staff and not consular staff, who enjoy only official act immunity. Temporary diplomatic staff also do not enjoy immunity. Then there are immunities for personnel of international organizations such as the UN, governed by 22 USC 288. Generally, such personnel enjoy official act immunity but not the strong inviolability enjoyed by diplomatic agents to the US: 22 USC 288d(b) says that




          Representatives of foreign governments in or to international
          organizations and officers and employees of such organizations shall
          be immune from suit and legal process relating to acts performed by
          them in their official capacity and falling within their functions as
          such representatives, officers, or employees
          except insofar as such
          immunity may be waived by the foreign government or international
          organization concerned.




          Paragraph (a) specifies that




          Persons designated by foreign governments to serve as their
          representatives in or to international organizations and the officers
          and employees of such organizations, and members of the immediate
          families of such representatives, officers, and employees residing
          with them, other than nationals of the United States, shall, insofar
          as concerns laws regulating entry into and departure from the United
          States, alien registration and fingerprinting, and the registration of
          foreign agents, be entitled to the same privileges, exemptions, and
          immunities as are accorded under similar circumstances to officers and
          employees, respectively, of foreign governments, and members of their
          families.




          The thing to notice is that (a) only grant "entry into the US" type immunity, not immunity from criminal prosecution.



          There are special cases such as the Sec'y General of the UN, who may be granted diplomatic agent style immunity. The State Dept. document on immunity says that




          The most senior representatives in these missions to international
          organizations have privileges and immunities equivalent to those
          afforded diplomatic agents. The remainder of the staffs of these
          missions have only official acts immunity pursuant to the
          International Organizations Immunities Act and no personal
          inviolability.




          I believe that this will be the primary area of legal debate: what is the meaning of "subject to jurisdiction". It is highly unlikely that the courts will interpret "official act immunity" as meaning "not subject to US jurisdiction".







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 4 hours ago









          user6726user6726

          59.5k455101




          59.5k455101













          • While interesting, the discussion of immunity (in it's various forms) seems irrelevant to whether Hoda Muthana was a US citizen when she was born.

            – BobE
            4 hours ago






          • 1





            No, it is entirely relevant, because that is the legal underpinning of the birthright nationality question, as established in Wong Ark Kim.

            – user6726
            4 hours ago











          • The legal underpinning of the birthright citizenship is the 14th amendment. Are you arguing that Hoda Muthana was never under US jurisdiction?

            – BobE
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            No, I am stating that her citizenship status reduces to whether or not her father was subject to US jurisdiction, which will be decided on the basis of immunity.

            – user6726
            2 hours ago











          • 1) I agree that her status is dependent on the status of her father's immunity, HOWEVER, her father would have no immunity if his diplomatic status had been terminated. The determination of his diplomatic status (at the time of her birth) is controlling on her citizenship status.

            – BobE
            33 mins ago



















          • While interesting, the discussion of immunity (in it's various forms) seems irrelevant to whether Hoda Muthana was a US citizen when she was born.

            – BobE
            4 hours ago






          • 1





            No, it is entirely relevant, because that is the legal underpinning of the birthright nationality question, as established in Wong Ark Kim.

            – user6726
            4 hours ago











          • The legal underpinning of the birthright citizenship is the 14th amendment. Are you arguing that Hoda Muthana was never under US jurisdiction?

            – BobE
            2 hours ago






          • 1





            No, I am stating that her citizenship status reduces to whether or not her father was subject to US jurisdiction, which will be decided on the basis of immunity.

            – user6726
            2 hours ago











          • 1) I agree that her status is dependent on the status of her father's immunity, HOWEVER, her father would have no immunity if his diplomatic status had been terminated. The determination of his diplomatic status (at the time of her birth) is controlling on her citizenship status.

            – BobE
            33 mins ago

















          While interesting, the discussion of immunity (in it's various forms) seems irrelevant to whether Hoda Muthana was a US citizen when she was born.

          – BobE
          4 hours ago





          While interesting, the discussion of immunity (in it's various forms) seems irrelevant to whether Hoda Muthana was a US citizen when she was born.

          – BobE
          4 hours ago




          1




          1





          No, it is entirely relevant, because that is the legal underpinning of the birthright nationality question, as established in Wong Ark Kim.

          – user6726
          4 hours ago





          No, it is entirely relevant, because that is the legal underpinning of the birthright nationality question, as established in Wong Ark Kim.

          – user6726
          4 hours ago













          The legal underpinning of the birthright citizenship is the 14th amendment. Are you arguing that Hoda Muthana was never under US jurisdiction?

          – BobE
          2 hours ago





          The legal underpinning of the birthright citizenship is the 14th amendment. Are you arguing that Hoda Muthana was never under US jurisdiction?

          – BobE
          2 hours ago




          1




          1





          No, I am stating that her citizenship status reduces to whether or not her father was subject to US jurisdiction, which will be decided on the basis of immunity.

          – user6726
          2 hours ago





          No, I am stating that her citizenship status reduces to whether or not her father was subject to US jurisdiction, which will be decided on the basis of immunity.

          – user6726
          2 hours ago













          1) I agree that her status is dependent on the status of her father's immunity, HOWEVER, her father would have no immunity if his diplomatic status had been terminated. The determination of his diplomatic status (at the time of her birth) is controlling on her citizenship status.

          – BobE
          33 mins ago





          1) I agree that her status is dependent on the status of her father's immunity, HOWEVER, her father would have no immunity if his diplomatic status had been terminated. The determination of his diplomatic status (at the time of her birth) is controlling on her citizenship status.

          – BobE
          33 mins ago


















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