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Reading Mishnayos without understanding



Purim and Shushan PurimWhy aren't Zeraim or Toharos included in the Bavli as Mishnayos?Learning Torah without understandingMedicinal etc. Sections of TalmudCan the Mishnah be interpreted according to both peshat and drash?Study of Written Law Without ComprehensionBorrowing without permission?What's so special about the Bartenura on Mishnayos?Where can I find help with Mishnayos learning?The New Artscroll Mishnayos: Product RecommendationGenerally speaking, how should one interpret Mishnayos that go off-tangent?












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Is it considered Talmud Torah if one just reads mishnayos without understanding what he's saying?










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    3















    Is it considered Talmud Torah if one just reads mishnayos without understanding what he's saying?










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      3












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      Is it considered Talmud Torah if one just reads mishnayos without understanding what he's saying?










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      Is it considered Talmud Torah if one just reads mishnayos without understanding what he's saying?







      torah-study mishna






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      edited 2 hours ago









      mbloch

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      MosheMoshe

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          3 Answers
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          Even Shleima 8:1 from Aggadic commentary by Vilna Gaon




          One must first learn of the tanach. And all of Mishnah, even if he doesn’t understand the Mishnah.




          In the commentary, the Mishnah is likened to chopping down trees and Talmud to chopping the trees into wood pieces. Also, that one cannot really understand the Mishna, for that is why we have the Talmud, to explain the Mishnah. Nonetheless, the Mishnah is an integral spiritual endeavor and must be studied entirely from the onset regardless of comprehension ability.



          He seems to relate this verse in Ecclesiastes 6, with but God does not permit him to enjoy it referring to study of Mishnah, while the latter section of the verse referring to Talmud study.




          אִ֣ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֣ר יִתֶּן־ל֣וֹ הָאֱלֹהִ֡ים עֹשֶׁר֩ וּנְכָסִ֨ים וְכָב֜וֹד וְֽאֵינֶ֨נּוּ חָסֵ֥ר לְנַפְשׁ֣וֹ ׀ מִכֹּ֣ל אֲשֶׁר־יִתְאַוֶּ֗ה וְלֹֽא־יַשְׁלִיטֶ֤נּוּ הָֽאֱלֹהִים֙ לֶאֱכֹ֣ל מִמֶּ֔נּוּ כִּ֛י אִ֥ישׁ נָכְרִ֖י יֹֽאכֲלֶ֑נּוּ זֶ֥ה הֶ֛בֶל וָחֳלִ֥י רָ֖ע הֽוּא׃



          That God sometimes grants a man riches, property, and wealth, so that he does not want for anything his appetite may crave, but God does not permit him to enjoy it; instead, a stranger will enjoy it. That is futility and a grievous ill.







          share|improve this answer

































            0














            It appears from the words of the Shulkhan Aruch HaRav that one does not although the Chida suggests one does fulfill the mitzva if one exerted himself to comprehend the words even if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.



            R Tzvi Sinensky writes




            Earlier in his Laws of Torah Study, R. Shneur Zalman rules (2:12-13)
            that whereas one who studies the Oral Torah without understanding the
            words has fulfilled no mitzva
            , one who studies the Written Torah
            without understanding still fulfills the obligation of talmud Torah.
            We might explain the logic for this view as follows: the primary value
            of the Oral Torah is to understand the halakhot [...] Thus, one who does not understand the words
            fails to fulfill one’s obligation.
            However, study of the written Torah
            is qualitatively different; the very encounter is significant [...]




            Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchek builds on this (see here) and




            for that reason, the Brisker Rav suggested there is no concept of
            Oisiyos Machkimos (reading the text makes one wiser) regarding Torah
            SheBaal Peh.




            However the Chida (Maris HaAyin, Avodah Zara 19) qualifies this ruling.




            This [...] only applies if one did not make a sincere effort to
            understand what he is saying. However, if one exerted himself to
            comprehend the words, he fulfills his mitzvah of learning Torah, even
            if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.







            share|improve this answer































              0














              In his introduction to his commentary to the Torah, R. Yaakov Kamenetzky explains that only the Torah consists of God's direct words. Even Nevi'im and Ketuvim are only the prophet's own expression of God's words. Therefore the only subject that is a fulfillment of Talmud Torah without understanding is the Torah itself, since even when reading without understanding it is God's words that are being read. Anything else only qualifies as Talmud Torah when the person understands what he is reading, since the words themselves are not directly God's:




              ויוצא לנו נפקותא גדולה בין תורה לנביאים וכתובים דבתורה התיבות כמות שהן תורה הן שהרי אומר ממש דברי ד' ושפיר מקיים המצוה על ידי המקרא בלבד אפילו אם אינו יודע מאי קאמר משא"כ בנביאים שהלשון הוא הבעת מחשבת הנביא א"כ ע"כ כשהלה מבין מה שהוא אומר אזי הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה ודו"ק והיינו ביאור דברי רש"י הנ"ל דלפיכך קרי ליה לחומש מקרא משום דבקריאתה בלבד הוא מקיים מצות ת"ת משא"כ בנו"כ דבהו רק על ידי הלמוד הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה לבאר







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                3 Answers
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                active

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                3 Answers
                3






                active

                oldest

                votes









                active

                oldest

                votes






                active

                oldest

                votes









                1














                Even Shleima 8:1 from Aggadic commentary by Vilna Gaon




                One must first learn of the tanach. And all of Mishnah, even if he doesn’t understand the Mishnah.




                In the commentary, the Mishnah is likened to chopping down trees and Talmud to chopping the trees into wood pieces. Also, that one cannot really understand the Mishna, for that is why we have the Talmud, to explain the Mishnah. Nonetheless, the Mishnah is an integral spiritual endeavor and must be studied entirely from the onset regardless of comprehension ability.



                He seems to relate this verse in Ecclesiastes 6, with but God does not permit him to enjoy it referring to study of Mishnah, while the latter section of the verse referring to Talmud study.




                אִ֣ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֣ר יִתֶּן־ל֣וֹ הָאֱלֹהִ֡ים עֹשֶׁר֩ וּנְכָסִ֨ים וְכָב֜וֹד וְֽאֵינֶ֨נּוּ חָסֵ֥ר לְנַפְשׁ֣וֹ ׀ מִכֹּ֣ל אֲשֶׁר־יִתְאַוֶּ֗ה וְלֹֽא־יַשְׁלִיטֶ֤נּוּ הָֽאֱלֹהִים֙ לֶאֱכֹ֣ל מִמֶּ֔נּוּ כִּ֛י אִ֥ישׁ נָכְרִ֖י יֹֽאכֲלֶ֑נּוּ זֶ֥ה הֶ֛בֶל וָחֳלִ֥י רָ֖ע הֽוּא׃



                That God sometimes grants a man riches, property, and wealth, so that he does not want for anything his appetite may crave, but God does not permit him to enjoy it; instead, a stranger will enjoy it. That is futility and a grievous ill.







                share|improve this answer






























                  1














                  Even Shleima 8:1 from Aggadic commentary by Vilna Gaon




                  One must first learn of the tanach. And all of Mishnah, even if he doesn’t understand the Mishnah.




                  In the commentary, the Mishnah is likened to chopping down trees and Talmud to chopping the trees into wood pieces. Also, that one cannot really understand the Mishna, for that is why we have the Talmud, to explain the Mishnah. Nonetheless, the Mishnah is an integral spiritual endeavor and must be studied entirely from the onset regardless of comprehension ability.



                  He seems to relate this verse in Ecclesiastes 6, with but God does not permit him to enjoy it referring to study of Mishnah, while the latter section of the verse referring to Talmud study.




                  אִ֣ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֣ר יִתֶּן־ל֣וֹ הָאֱלֹהִ֡ים עֹשֶׁר֩ וּנְכָסִ֨ים וְכָב֜וֹד וְֽאֵינֶ֨נּוּ חָסֵ֥ר לְנַפְשׁ֣וֹ ׀ מִכֹּ֣ל אֲשֶׁר־יִתְאַוֶּ֗ה וְלֹֽא־יַשְׁלִיטֶ֤נּוּ הָֽאֱלֹהִים֙ לֶאֱכֹ֣ל מִמֶּ֔נּוּ כִּ֛י אִ֥ישׁ נָכְרִ֖י יֹֽאכֲלֶ֑נּוּ זֶ֥ה הֶ֛בֶל וָחֳלִ֥י רָ֖ע הֽוּא׃



                  That God sometimes grants a man riches, property, and wealth, so that he does not want for anything his appetite may crave, but God does not permit him to enjoy it; instead, a stranger will enjoy it. That is futility and a grievous ill.







                  share|improve this answer




























                    1












                    1








                    1







                    Even Shleima 8:1 from Aggadic commentary by Vilna Gaon




                    One must first learn of the tanach. And all of Mishnah, even if he doesn’t understand the Mishnah.




                    In the commentary, the Mishnah is likened to chopping down trees and Talmud to chopping the trees into wood pieces. Also, that one cannot really understand the Mishna, for that is why we have the Talmud, to explain the Mishnah. Nonetheless, the Mishnah is an integral spiritual endeavor and must be studied entirely from the onset regardless of comprehension ability.



                    He seems to relate this verse in Ecclesiastes 6, with but God does not permit him to enjoy it referring to study of Mishnah, while the latter section of the verse referring to Talmud study.




                    אִ֣ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֣ר יִתֶּן־ל֣וֹ הָאֱלֹהִ֡ים עֹשֶׁר֩ וּנְכָסִ֨ים וְכָב֜וֹד וְֽאֵינֶ֨נּוּ חָסֵ֥ר לְנַפְשׁ֣וֹ ׀ מִכֹּ֣ל אֲשֶׁר־יִתְאַוֶּ֗ה וְלֹֽא־יַשְׁלִיטֶ֤נּוּ הָֽאֱלֹהִים֙ לֶאֱכֹ֣ל מִמֶּ֔נּוּ כִּ֛י אִ֥ישׁ נָכְרִ֖י יֹֽאכֲלֶ֑נּוּ זֶ֥ה הֶ֛בֶל וָחֳלִ֥י רָ֖ע הֽוּא׃



                    That God sometimes grants a man riches, property, and wealth, so that he does not want for anything his appetite may crave, but God does not permit him to enjoy it; instead, a stranger will enjoy it. That is futility and a grievous ill.







                    share|improve this answer















                    Even Shleima 8:1 from Aggadic commentary by Vilna Gaon




                    One must first learn of the tanach. And all of Mishnah, even if he doesn’t understand the Mishnah.




                    In the commentary, the Mishnah is likened to chopping down trees and Talmud to chopping the trees into wood pieces. Also, that one cannot really understand the Mishna, for that is why we have the Talmud, to explain the Mishnah. Nonetheless, the Mishnah is an integral spiritual endeavor and must be studied entirely from the onset regardless of comprehension ability.



                    He seems to relate this verse in Ecclesiastes 6, with but God does not permit him to enjoy it referring to study of Mishnah, while the latter section of the verse referring to Talmud study.




                    אִ֣ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֣ר יִתֶּן־ל֣וֹ הָאֱלֹהִ֡ים עֹשֶׁר֩ וּנְכָסִ֨ים וְכָב֜וֹד וְֽאֵינֶ֨נּוּ חָסֵ֥ר לְנַפְשׁ֣וֹ ׀ מִכֹּ֣ל אֲשֶׁר־יִתְאַוֶּ֗ה וְלֹֽא־יַשְׁלִיטֶ֤נּוּ הָֽאֱלֹהִים֙ לֶאֱכֹ֣ל מִמֶּ֔נּוּ כִּ֛י אִ֥ישׁ נָכְרִ֖י יֹֽאכֲלֶ֑נּוּ זֶ֥ה הֶ֛בֶל וָחֳלִ֥י רָ֖ע הֽוּא׃



                    That God sometimes grants a man riches, property, and wealth, so that he does not want for anything his appetite may crave, but God does not permit him to enjoy it; instead, a stranger will enjoy it. That is futility and a grievous ill.








                    share|improve this answer














                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited 1 hour ago

























                    answered 1 hour ago









                    Dr. ShmuelDr. Shmuel

                    3,0691947




                    3,0691947























                        0














                        It appears from the words of the Shulkhan Aruch HaRav that one does not although the Chida suggests one does fulfill the mitzva if one exerted himself to comprehend the words even if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.



                        R Tzvi Sinensky writes




                        Earlier in his Laws of Torah Study, R. Shneur Zalman rules (2:12-13)
                        that whereas one who studies the Oral Torah without understanding the
                        words has fulfilled no mitzva
                        , one who studies the Written Torah
                        without understanding still fulfills the obligation of talmud Torah.
                        We might explain the logic for this view as follows: the primary value
                        of the Oral Torah is to understand the halakhot [...] Thus, one who does not understand the words
                        fails to fulfill one’s obligation.
                        However, study of the written Torah
                        is qualitatively different; the very encounter is significant [...]




                        Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchek builds on this (see here) and




                        for that reason, the Brisker Rav suggested there is no concept of
                        Oisiyos Machkimos (reading the text makes one wiser) regarding Torah
                        SheBaal Peh.




                        However the Chida (Maris HaAyin, Avodah Zara 19) qualifies this ruling.




                        This [...] only applies if one did not make a sincere effort to
                        understand what he is saying. However, if one exerted himself to
                        comprehend the words, he fulfills his mitzvah of learning Torah, even
                        if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.







                        share|improve this answer




























                          0














                          It appears from the words of the Shulkhan Aruch HaRav that one does not although the Chida suggests one does fulfill the mitzva if one exerted himself to comprehend the words even if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.



                          R Tzvi Sinensky writes




                          Earlier in his Laws of Torah Study, R. Shneur Zalman rules (2:12-13)
                          that whereas one who studies the Oral Torah without understanding the
                          words has fulfilled no mitzva
                          , one who studies the Written Torah
                          without understanding still fulfills the obligation of talmud Torah.
                          We might explain the logic for this view as follows: the primary value
                          of the Oral Torah is to understand the halakhot [...] Thus, one who does not understand the words
                          fails to fulfill one’s obligation.
                          However, study of the written Torah
                          is qualitatively different; the very encounter is significant [...]




                          Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchek builds on this (see here) and




                          for that reason, the Brisker Rav suggested there is no concept of
                          Oisiyos Machkimos (reading the text makes one wiser) regarding Torah
                          SheBaal Peh.




                          However the Chida (Maris HaAyin, Avodah Zara 19) qualifies this ruling.




                          This [...] only applies if one did not make a sincere effort to
                          understand what he is saying. However, if one exerted himself to
                          comprehend the words, he fulfills his mitzvah of learning Torah, even
                          if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.







                          share|improve this answer


























                            0












                            0








                            0







                            It appears from the words of the Shulkhan Aruch HaRav that one does not although the Chida suggests one does fulfill the mitzva if one exerted himself to comprehend the words even if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.



                            R Tzvi Sinensky writes




                            Earlier in his Laws of Torah Study, R. Shneur Zalman rules (2:12-13)
                            that whereas one who studies the Oral Torah without understanding the
                            words has fulfilled no mitzva
                            , one who studies the Written Torah
                            without understanding still fulfills the obligation of talmud Torah.
                            We might explain the logic for this view as follows: the primary value
                            of the Oral Torah is to understand the halakhot [...] Thus, one who does not understand the words
                            fails to fulfill one’s obligation.
                            However, study of the written Torah
                            is qualitatively different; the very encounter is significant [...]




                            Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchek builds on this (see here) and




                            for that reason, the Brisker Rav suggested there is no concept of
                            Oisiyos Machkimos (reading the text makes one wiser) regarding Torah
                            SheBaal Peh.




                            However the Chida (Maris HaAyin, Avodah Zara 19) qualifies this ruling.




                            This [...] only applies if one did not make a sincere effort to
                            understand what he is saying. However, if one exerted himself to
                            comprehend the words, he fulfills his mitzvah of learning Torah, even
                            if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.







                            share|improve this answer













                            It appears from the words of the Shulkhan Aruch HaRav that one does not although the Chida suggests one does fulfill the mitzva if one exerted himself to comprehend the words even if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.



                            R Tzvi Sinensky writes




                            Earlier in his Laws of Torah Study, R. Shneur Zalman rules (2:12-13)
                            that whereas one who studies the Oral Torah without understanding the
                            words has fulfilled no mitzva
                            , one who studies the Written Torah
                            without understanding still fulfills the obligation of talmud Torah.
                            We might explain the logic for this view as follows: the primary value
                            of the Oral Torah is to understand the halakhot [...] Thus, one who does not understand the words
                            fails to fulfill one’s obligation.
                            However, study of the written Torah
                            is qualitatively different; the very encounter is significant [...]




                            Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchek builds on this (see here) and




                            for that reason, the Brisker Rav suggested there is no concept of
                            Oisiyos Machkimos (reading the text makes one wiser) regarding Torah
                            SheBaal Peh.




                            However the Chida (Maris HaAyin, Avodah Zara 19) qualifies this ruling.




                            This [...] only applies if one did not make a sincere effort to
                            understand what he is saying. However, if one exerted himself to
                            comprehend the words, he fulfills his mitzvah of learning Torah, even
                            if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.








                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 2 hours ago









                            mblochmbloch

                            25.2k545131




                            25.2k545131























                                0














                                In his introduction to his commentary to the Torah, R. Yaakov Kamenetzky explains that only the Torah consists of God's direct words. Even Nevi'im and Ketuvim are only the prophet's own expression of God's words. Therefore the only subject that is a fulfillment of Talmud Torah without understanding is the Torah itself, since even when reading without understanding it is God's words that are being read. Anything else only qualifies as Talmud Torah when the person understands what he is reading, since the words themselves are not directly God's:




                                ויוצא לנו נפקותא גדולה בין תורה לנביאים וכתובים דבתורה התיבות כמות שהן תורה הן שהרי אומר ממש דברי ד' ושפיר מקיים המצוה על ידי המקרא בלבד אפילו אם אינו יודע מאי קאמר משא"כ בנביאים שהלשון הוא הבעת מחשבת הנביא א"כ ע"כ כשהלה מבין מה שהוא אומר אזי הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה ודו"ק והיינו ביאור דברי רש"י הנ"ל דלפיכך קרי ליה לחומש מקרא משום דבקריאתה בלבד הוא מקיים מצות ת"ת משא"כ בנו"כ דבהו רק על ידי הלמוד הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה לבאר







                                share|improve this answer




























                                  0














                                  In his introduction to his commentary to the Torah, R. Yaakov Kamenetzky explains that only the Torah consists of God's direct words. Even Nevi'im and Ketuvim are only the prophet's own expression of God's words. Therefore the only subject that is a fulfillment of Talmud Torah without understanding is the Torah itself, since even when reading without understanding it is God's words that are being read. Anything else only qualifies as Talmud Torah when the person understands what he is reading, since the words themselves are not directly God's:




                                  ויוצא לנו נפקותא גדולה בין תורה לנביאים וכתובים דבתורה התיבות כמות שהן תורה הן שהרי אומר ממש דברי ד' ושפיר מקיים המצוה על ידי המקרא בלבד אפילו אם אינו יודע מאי קאמר משא"כ בנביאים שהלשון הוא הבעת מחשבת הנביא א"כ ע"כ כשהלה מבין מה שהוא אומר אזי הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה ודו"ק והיינו ביאור דברי רש"י הנ"ל דלפיכך קרי ליה לחומש מקרא משום דבקריאתה בלבד הוא מקיים מצות ת"ת משא"כ בנו"כ דבהו רק על ידי הלמוד הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה לבאר







                                  share|improve this answer


























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                                    0








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                                    In his introduction to his commentary to the Torah, R. Yaakov Kamenetzky explains that only the Torah consists of God's direct words. Even Nevi'im and Ketuvim are only the prophet's own expression of God's words. Therefore the only subject that is a fulfillment of Talmud Torah without understanding is the Torah itself, since even when reading without understanding it is God's words that are being read. Anything else only qualifies as Talmud Torah when the person understands what he is reading, since the words themselves are not directly God's:




                                    ויוצא לנו נפקותא גדולה בין תורה לנביאים וכתובים דבתורה התיבות כמות שהן תורה הן שהרי אומר ממש דברי ד' ושפיר מקיים המצוה על ידי המקרא בלבד אפילו אם אינו יודע מאי קאמר משא"כ בנביאים שהלשון הוא הבעת מחשבת הנביא א"כ ע"כ כשהלה מבין מה שהוא אומר אזי הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה ודו"ק והיינו ביאור דברי רש"י הנ"ל דלפיכך קרי ליה לחומש מקרא משום דבקריאתה בלבד הוא מקיים מצות ת"ת משא"כ בנו"כ דבהו רק על ידי הלמוד הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה לבאר







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                                    In his introduction to his commentary to the Torah, R. Yaakov Kamenetzky explains that only the Torah consists of God's direct words. Even Nevi'im and Ketuvim are only the prophet's own expression of God's words. Therefore the only subject that is a fulfillment of Talmud Torah without understanding is the Torah itself, since even when reading without understanding it is God's words that are being read. Anything else only qualifies as Talmud Torah when the person understands what he is reading, since the words themselves are not directly God's:




                                    ויוצא לנו נפקותא גדולה בין תורה לנביאים וכתובים דבתורה התיבות כמות שהן תורה הן שהרי אומר ממש דברי ד' ושפיר מקיים המצוה על ידי המקרא בלבד אפילו אם אינו יודע מאי קאמר משא"כ בנביאים שהלשון הוא הבעת מחשבת הנביא א"כ ע"כ כשהלה מבין מה שהוא אומר אזי הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה ודו"ק והיינו ביאור דברי רש"י הנ"ל דלפיכך קרי ליה לחומש מקרא משום דבקריאתה בלבד הוא מקיים מצות ת"ת משא"כ בנו"כ דבהו רק על ידי הלמוד הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה לבאר








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                                    AlexAlex

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